Fife Saint Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Again, I'll make point that the EBT's seen to have been selectively used to attract certain players or retain others, they werent used on a fixed rate across the entire squad, that gives a greater leverage in attracting players that might have looked at other clubs. Billboard signings or whatever the term is. Exactly, it's impossible to apply a set level of advantage gained. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome_Devil Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I understand and agree, but the alternative is equally misrepresentative of the competition. I'd just write off their cup wins and not award them. Turn the league results into defeats and see who wins it. In games when ineligible players were proven to have been used. That said, I don't especially care whether titles are taken from them or not - Motherwell getting a retrospective League Cup would not cheer me up now after the dismal day of the 5-1 hounding. Perhaps I'd feel different if we were on course for a league championship but basically I'm much more concerned about how any punishment for wrongdoing effects them in the future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Exactly, it's impossible to apply a set level of advantage gained. And unnecessary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) If anyone is on twitter you should follow Gregory Ioannidis, @LawTop20 The Dark Side of Football and its Bad Advisers http://lawtop20.blog...d.html?spref=tw Edited June 5, 2012 by Enrico Annoni 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 did you see the panorama program explaining how glaxosmithkline and other companies shift their profits out of the uk into luxembourg? sickening. Yup, but that's 'within the law' tax avoidance, however dubious a practice it may be. In a common market, there shouldn't be such loopholes and boltholes. BUT, Not paying a fucking penny in tax over the last year should surely to goodness be enough to say that's a clear pisstake, get them out the league altogether. (I know it won't, but..) The EBT's aside, the nonpayment of PAYE and whatever else is a serious matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbhoy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 can i ask why you think it allowed only 5-6% extra spending and why this wasnt a massive advantage? to my mind, you cant factor in the 'total' spend as rangers didnt need to have an advantage with the transfer fee, simply to be able to offer more wages. by use of the etb's the gain was far more than 5% and more importantly it was 'noticeably more' which is all it needed to be to mean players would choose rangers over other clubs who paid their taxes. Here's one example that's more than 5-6% "Barry Ferguson" £2.5 million over 5 years paid through the EBT system. Barry was reputed to be around £20K plus a week at Ibrox ! so Barry was actually saving 50% plus or minus on his total taxes due saving £8K a week plus or minus overall ! this saving is much more than most players outside the OF earn in a week !. If Barry was actually earning a declared £40K plus a week he'd be paying £16K plus a week leaving him a take home pay of £24K plus or minus ! but Barry on £20K plus a week declared pays only £8K plus or minus ! so Barry actually avoids paying around £416K tax a year and pockets it tax free. 5-6% would be an average over a period of time although I'm sure most payments were just top up payments to bribe players lower than the 5%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) That said, I don't especially care whether titles are taken from them or not - Motherwell getting a retrospective League Cup would not cheer me up now after the dismal day of the 5-1 hounding. Perhaps I'd feel different if we were on course for a league championship but basically I'm much more concerned about how any punishment for wrongdoing effects them in the future. You see, for me it's really important, which is why I brought it up a couple of pages back. They're currently in trouble, pretty much for what's happened in the last year. However, it seems likely that even bigger crimes happened beforehand. A big part of any Newco debate concerns whether they keep their history. I think it's really important that their already grubby history is suitably sullied by what they're alleged to have been up to in the last decade. Of course, they'll still have won more than anybody else, but if 2nd contracts are proved to have been in operation, I see the removal of titles as an important declaration that they cheated. Edited June 5, 2012 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I take your point about EBT's being used selectively, but the ammount of money saved is massive regardless of how it was used and still ammounts to a great deal more than an extra 5 or 6% net spend. I'm not disputing that, it will balance out to an extent with the Sums ranging from a couple of thousand up to the millions. They overlapped as the players careers did too, so it's hard to say what the impact was per season, only that over the whole period they were in use that they added to the nominal budget available and at certain points stretched the resource pretty much as far as rangers needed it for any individual they were after. It certainly explains in hindsight a few transfers where the average football fan thought ' how the f**k did they sign him' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I hope this isn't a very stupid question but if Rangers sell all the big earners for let's say £9M and then get booted out of Scottish football shortly afterwards, who gets the dough? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I hope this isn't a very stupid question but if Rangers sell all the big earners for let's say £9M and then get booted out of Scottish football shortly afterwards, who gets the dough? Magee. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbhoy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 you do realise that investment firms handling hundreds of millions of pounds have sources of information beyond the record, the sun and the star? YIP I do and Ticketus probably got shafted because they didn't do their homework right. Or it is some sort of conspiratorial scam made up from dodgy individuals to screw over the insurance company that insured the loan ? . Either way we are certain Ticketus FCUKED UP big time . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fife Saint Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 You see, for me it's really important, which is why I brought it up a couple of pages back. They're currently in trouble, pretty much for what's happened in the last year. For me though, it's likely that even bigger crimes happened beforehand. A big part of any Newco debate concerns whether they keep their history. I think it's really important that their already grubby history is suitably sullied by what they're alleged to have been up to in the last decade. Of course, they'll still have won more than anybody else, but if 2nd contracts are proved to have been in operation, I see the removal of titles as an important declaration that they cheated. Well said. Good time to get the EBT stuff out in the open and get rid of the deals restricting the future revenue while they are at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) There is no chance of a CVA. The list of creditors includes Rapid Vienna, Hearts, Celtic, Caley, Dunfermline, Dundee Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City and Orebro amongst others. If Rangers are intent on paying all these clubs in full - and they may need to so that UEFA and therefore FIFA don't rock up and boot them in the balls - then HMRC won't play. If there is even a suspicion that monies owed to football clubs will be made good after admin, HMRC won't play. And that suspicion must exist. This club has been run by shysters and as the identity of the new owners is not fully in the public domain, nobody can say that there won't be a new set of shysters. Failure to pay football clubs = an absolute shoeing. And for the Rangers fans still bleating about everyone being against them, your club made a conscious decision not to pay the taxes it was due to pay - £14 fuckin million!!! The fact that they could have paid it but CHOSE not to is worse than simply having run out of cash. As soon as they were rumbled, they were thrown into administration with indecent haste - primarily to screw the taxpayer. For the way they have behaved they deserve to be hurled from Scottish football. And these were not the actions of one man. Enough people knew and could have made a difference but they stuck their heads in the sand and chose to keep quiet. That's without the issue of dual contracts ... Of course the SPL have no balls at all but if they did, they'd receive a newco application, pish themselves laughing and tell Green and his mystery men to get to fvck. Edited June 6, 2012 by HTG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiddy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 So, when does CG appoint Claude Anelka as McCoists replacement? There's a conveyor belt of European talent out there just waiting to be exploited you know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 And for the Rangers fans still bleating about everyone being against them, your club made a conscious decision not to pay the taxes it was due to pay - £14 fuckin million!!! The fact that they could have paid it but CHOSE not to is worse than simply having run out of cash. As soon as they were rumbled, they were thrown into administration with indecent haste - primarily to screw the taxpayer. For the way they have behaved they deserve to be hurled from Scottish football. You have no idea how angry I get when I think about this. They knew full well what the future held for them and still tried to sign players, screwing the selling club and the player who would be quickly asked to take a wage cup soon after arriving. Special mention to any Dundee Utd fans reading this. Think how close you came to getting very little for Goodwillie. You could have been in Hearts boat and if Rangers had got their way you would've been. Tell Stephen Thompson that when he's ready to vote Newco Rangers back in. Rangers didn't care 1 jot about trying to screw over Utd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I see the removal of titles as an important declaration that they cheated. I agree and think its important that the cup wins are revoked and marked as 'no winner' (the losing finalist can maybe be acknowledged) For league wins, I reckon it's fair enough to award to whoever was runner up rather than recalculate every league table over the period. Main thing is that those 'honours' are removed and the wee red book and the official records of the SPL, Scottish Cup and Scottish League Cup are updated, revised and reflect the cheating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 He's a Buddie. Easy part for him in that film. Parts of Paisley make Sparta seem like Kensingston. He's from Paisley, but like Nutini, he's not a Buddie. Green vermin bigot cnut is he. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbhoy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 You have no idea how angry I get when I think about this. They knew full well what the future held for them and still tried to sign players, screwing the selling club and the player who would be quickly asked to take a wage cup soon after arriving. Special mention to any Dundee Utd fans reading this. Think how close you came to getting very little for Goodwillie. You could have been in Hearts boat and if Rangers had got their way you would've been. Tell Stephen Thompson that when he's ready to vote Newco Rangers back in. Rangers didn't care 1 jot about trying to screw over Utd I think Rangers would screw themselves over if they could ! hang on a minute they have . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 You have no idea how angry I get when I think about this. They knew full well what the future held for them and still tried to sign players, screwing the selling club and the player who would be quickly asked to take a wage cup soon after arriving. Special mention to any Dundee Utd fans reading this. Think how close you came to getting very little for Goodwillie. You could have been in Hearts boat and if Rangers had got their way you would've been. Tell Stephen Thompson that when he's ready to vote Newco Rangers back in. Rangers didn't care 1 jot about trying to screw over Utd Point well made sir, I know from inside the reason he didn't go to Rangers was, apart from the five bids it took to match the Blackburn offer, Stephen Thompson knew fell well how precarious a financial position Rangers were in and asked for the full fee upfront or no deal. Hence Goodie to Blackburn. I'm sure it's been in his thoughts how he managed to avoid the pitfall and the implications that would have had on top of what they currently owe United. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dundee Hibernian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Just in from the boozer, Rangers fans don't want to talk about their situation, Celtic fans want them in for the OF matches, other supporters are getting pissed off at the authorities procrastinating about what should happen. Plenty posters here can clearly see what should happen. Get the finger out, SFA (I don't begin to think the spl have anything other than a case of the shakes about Rangers' situation). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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