ThirdrockfromtheSon Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 1354204729[/url]' post='6852024']TRFS (heavily edited to remove all the dung you said) Ya fcuking muppet !!! I rest my case, attack dog. That's three of you reeled in. QED x 3. If I'm a muppet, call me Stadtler or Waldorf. Otherwise, take yer insults and aim them at someone with thin skin, and a timid character. You failed miserably aiming your insults at me. I have the skin of a rhino, so GIRFUY. And to think I nearly defended you for the "soldier" attack you got recently. Thank f**k I didn't bother. You are as bad as the Amigos. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) The money men, the SPL board, the SFA all wanted this, the fans (all of them including Rangers) did not If you look at posts from Sevco fans days after their new club was born. You'll find the majority wanted to be in the SPL with no sanctions, it was only when it was clear the fans had a gun pointed to their chaimans heads that they changed their position to "We'll go doon there ta punish ya's, and boycott you all when we're back in the SPHELL" Edited November 29, 2012 by Fotbawmad -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Finally, as this is a football forum - is there anything more disrespectful than accusing someone of not following the team they have supported up and down the leagues, home and away, for over forty years? Not in my book. Aye? I'm not alone in thinking that if you were cut we would see Q's magical gadgets at work green and grey blood pouring freely from the wound. I've got more respect for the real plastics than hybrid c***s like you. Not much mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelegendthatis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Charlie has always been about his golden pay day Given all the facts of course he would take the CVA, it would be much easier to make money from a Rangers playing in the top flight with European Football on the horizon How the hell did an English guy from yorkshire know what would happen to the Rangers support if we were playing in the 3rd, did you read the predictions on this forum? liquidation 2 before Christmas ect ect SPL was a sure thing for him the alternative was always going to be more risky, however he must have know from the start that the newco route was the most likely route, this does not mean he would not have taken the CVA I believe that if the BTC result had been announced in May then the CVA would have been successful but then Green would not have been the buyer Wow Tedi, you really are thick. That is thick as in downright stupid. With a brain like yours there is merit in hiding your light under a bushel. In other words just shutting up. Your IQ does not increase with having more posts on P&B. Away back to boring the Bears. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 It is easy to hide behind an alias and throw insults Yes ive noticed you do this a lot. Very orcish behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 If you look at posts from Sevco fans days after their new club was born. You'll find the majority wanted to be in the SPL with no sanctions, it was only when it was clear the fans had a gun pointed to their chaimans heads that they changed their position to "We'll go doon there ta punish ya's, and boycott you all when we're back in the SPHELL" Not one single word of that is true. Tedi gives you a bit of credit for knowing this...I am not so sure. From my very first post on this thread...wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before Liquidation i said that Rangers should be demoted to Division 3 due to the behaviour of Craig Whyte and the fact the directors knew what was going on and said nothing. Absolutely nothing to do with the Big Tax Case which i have maintained all along that Rangers would win and nothing to do with the Newco/Oldco argument. There are a few reasons i made this statement but the main 2 were the scale of the 'cheating' that had gone on. He paid no outside contractors. He paid no footballing debt...to me this is the biggest crime and despite Yorkstons turnaround i am still ashamed that Rangers witheld that £80,000 from Dunfermline. At times like these that money could be the difference between a club going into administration and not. This is before you get to the small tax case and not paying the PAYE/NI contributions! The 2nd reason is the state the club was left in..We just needed the time to regroup and get ourself back together after being utterly destroyed by that man. I am not sure we would have been in such a strong position if we had stayed in an SPL. I know we certainly would not have the same following...That is for sure and when we do get to the top i am not sure we will have that support ever again. That will have to be dealt with at the time. Finally ... There was no gun pointed at our chairmans head other than the one held by our loyal support who told him in polls where the results went from 95%-97% in favour of division 3. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Not one single word of that is true. Tedi gives you a bit of credit for knowing this...I am not so sure. From my very first post on this thread...wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before Liquidation i said that Rangers should be demoted to Division 3 due to the behaviour of Craig Whyte and the fact the directors knew what was going on and said nothing. As I recall, that was indeed your position from the outset. Fotbawmad is not really wide of the mark however, in suggesting that for most Rangers fans, this is a view that emerged later and only really crystallised after the SPL voted against admitting the Newco. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribzanelli Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Does anyone have the debt figures at the time the CVA was voted for? I really really don't think that even with the BTC taken out of the equation there was ever any chance of a CVA being accepted, the PAYE/NIC debt was still too large and HMRC are supposedly unwilling to do a deal over deliberate with-holding of tax. Edited November 30, 2012 by ribzanelli 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calum_gers Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 It would have hinged on the smaller creditors. Ticketus and the Bond holders would have accounted for circa 69% of the debt. I think 75% was required to approve a CVA. I can't remember if there was another substantial debt apart from that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribzanelli Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 My back of a beer mat calculations reckon the total debt would have been around the 60 million mark, with the HMRC portion being around £20 million, but that could be well out. 75% is correct - I think they would have struggled to dilute HMRC below the 25% veto but then they could have pulled some funny business like Dundee did with their ground when they managed to dilute and then stiff Hector. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Does anyone have the debt figures at the time the CVA was voted for? I really really don't think that even with the BTC taken out of the equation there was ever any chance of a CVA being accepted, the PAYE/NIC debt was still too large and HMRC are supposedly unwilling to do a deal over deliberate with-holding of tax. I'm sure that's true. The Rangers argument however, would be that without the BTC, Whyte would never have got into the position to withold anything. It really doesn't dilute Murray's culpability of course, or excuse the club's determination to obstruct the process of the investigation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribzanelli Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I'm sure that's true. The Rangers argument however, would be that without the BTC, Whyte would never have got into the position to withold anything. It really doesn't dilute Murray's culpability of course, or excuse the club's determination to obstruct the process of the investigation. Yes but with or without the debt, where would the money to pay PAYE/NIC have come from? The money was withheld to run the business and these costs would have been hanging over him regardless of whether a £1, £1mill or £100mill potential liability were lurking no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 No8 we have already had this argument with the not so bright Tedi way back in the thread where he it was proved that the bears poll was conducted after they knew nobody wanted them in the SPL ... we also produced the poll conducted in April which shows the above to be utter nonsense .. Tedi ran away from this argument .. here is one of his childish retorts to the other poster involved. Do we really have to regurgitate the whole saga and embarrass Fivestars again? You can quote all the polls you want. I read Follow Follow on a daily basis and i KNOW FOR A FACT that the polls were always in favour off the division 3 route. You were wrong about our level of debt You were wrong about the RTC blog Wrong to listen to corrupt lawyers and failed social workers Wrong about the crowds we would attract Wrong about the standard of player we would be able to bring to the club Wrong about Rangers being a new football club You were wrong about the outcome of the FTTT Is there anything...anything at all you have actually been correct on? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Yes but with or without the debt, where would the money to pay PAYE/NIC have come from? The money was withheld to run the business and these costs would have been hanging over him regardless of whether a £1, £1mill or £100mill potential liability were lurking no? You're right, but Whyte would have been forced to do normal things like sell players, reduce the wage bill, hire a manager capable of engineering a European run etc. He did none of them and took them over the edge. It's still Murray's fault much more than anyone's though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You can quote all the polls you want. I read Follow Follow on a daily basis and i KNOW FOR A FACT that the polls were always in favour off the division 3 route. You were wrong about our level of debt You were wrong about the RTC blog Wrong to listen to corrupt lawyers and failed social workers Wrong about the crowds we would attract Wrong about the standard of player we would be able to bring to the club Wrong about Rangers being a new football club You were wrong about the outcome of the FTTT Is there anything...anything at all you have actually been correct on? Don't resort to this rubbish No8. It's clear that you've indulged in some revisionism on the question of the supporters' voice (albeit not your own). Pointing out once more that the FTTT went in Rangers' favour doesn't help you with this particular argument. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribzanelli Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You're right, but Whyte would have been forced to do normal things like sell players, reduce the wage bill, hire a manager capable of engineering a European run etc. He did none of them and took them over the edge. It's still Murray's fault much more than anyone's though. Point taken. realistically there are probably far too many variables to make an accurate prediction of what might have happened had the BTC been settled earlier. You could argue that without the BTC Lloyds might have put less pressure on Minty to sell (they were possibly scared of losing their £18 mill in a liquidation scenario) or that RFC might have been a more attractive proposition to proper businessmen and then CW wouldn't have been involved in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Point taken. realistically there are probably far too many variables to make an accurate prediction of what might have happened had the BTC been settled earlier. You could argue that without the BTC Lloyds might have put less pressure on Minty to sell (they were possibly scared of losing their £18 mill in a liquidation scenario) or that RFC might have been a more attractive proposition to proper businessmen and then CW wouldn't have been involved in the first place. Yes, but what doesn't get Murray off the hook is the fact that he thought the club was in such trouble that he offered £10m for it all to go away, was desperate to ditch the club and ultimately did so for £1. I think it's fair to say that his fear wasn't based on what some blogger was saying. Edited November 30, 2012 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Don't resort to this rubbish No8. All of the points i make are perfectly valid. Just for the record i was pretty much spot on with them all except for the crowds..I think i predicted 20-30,000. He is using a poll that has less than 500 pollsters....I am using polls from the major Rangers forum that had literally thousands polling and it was overwhelmingly in favour of the SFL 3 route. I think the lowest i saw that poll was somewhere in the region of 75%. The media.bloggers and even the good posters of P&B can believe what they want regarding this...It will just be another addition of their long line of complete f**k ups regarding Rangers Football Club. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 the good posters of P&B can believe what they want regarding this...It will just be another addition of their long line of complete f**k ups regarding Rangers Football Club. In the realms of Rangers related f**k ups, we really can't compete though, can we? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribzanelli Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Yes, but what doesn't get Murray off the hook is the fact that he thought the club was in such trouble that he offered £10m for it all to go away, was desperate to ditch the club and ultimately did so for £1. I think it's fair to say that his fear wasn't based on what some blogger was saying. Hypothetically though, if the BTC was settled years ago, the desperation and fear are taken out and things might have panned out differently. All if ands buts though. God this thread is in danger of having some people coherently putting valid points across. Diddies and Plastics! WKR Bond (© Dhensebore)! Norman! Have the miners been paid yet! Failed social workers! There, normal service resumed. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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