GreenockRover Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Snafs, Everytime I hear the phrase "...a club the size of Rangers/Celtic..." I laugh. Loudly and lengthily. Why? Because this "size" you refer to is borne of bile and bigotry and venomous hatred in the main. NOT a large group of football loving individuals who "...just want to watch the fitba...". The size of the support has relevance only in the potential for cash revenue. How that revenue is used is what makes that club "successful" or otherwise. Being intolerant of the success of others is what, ultimately,leads (and has led) to the downfall of your former incarnation as well as breeding this utterly pathetic attitude of perceived superiority. Every football fan outside of the Glasgow bubble understands this, but the much vaunted "size" of the fanbase of both clubs is as much to their disadvantage as it is to their financial advantage. The political and religious undertones within both supports are what give them their size and their money, but it's a price all of Scottish Football has to pay. Wake up. Edited April 15, 2014 by GreenockRover 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Yes, I think we were, sorry about that. Well, it does, doesnt it? Again, that makes sense. However, again, that isnt what the supporters groups are saying. Maybe its just semantics, but they talk about the assets being "in good hands" should the club go under. To me, that implies that they want their season tickets and control over the assets, not just security that the club will be able to fulfill its commitment. I would describe that as something over and above what they're entitled to as part of a season ticket purchase. Just picking up on the lecky company part, they don't rely on your payments for cashflow, these companies are cash generative with or without your payment (generating profit) and have a much greater potential customer base. Just to repeat, RFC is totally dependant on getting season ticket money in. Their recent short term financing was basically a sub until season ticket money came in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 well, people need to put their money where their mouth is and not rely on the perchance that a sugar daddy might just come along and be the quick fire solution to every current financial problem the club has. the demand for success and high standards is ingrained in the club and coupled with the rivalry with celtic the pressure is constant to return as quickly as possible to the top flight and be the top club in Scotland once again. failure is not an option. so far football wise the train is still on the track and still on time. Would you rather your team wen't out of business challenging Celtic or just became a mid table non-entity? Is it really all about winning for you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Would you rather your team wen't out of business challenging Celtic or just became a mid table non-entity? Is it really all about winning for you? This. I would rather have a team tomorrow than a trophy today, but am I in the minority? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Just picking up on the lecky company part, they don't rely on your payments for cashflow, these companies are cash generative with or without your payment (generating profit) and have a much greater potential customer base. Just to repeat, RFC is totally dependant on getting season ticket money in. Their recent short term financing was basically a sub until season ticket money came in. Pretty sure if all of Scottish Powers customers decided to withhold payments their cashflow would be significantly affected. Not as much as a football clubs, of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 that's motherwell's options,, doesn't apply to rangers. Did you miss what happened to your old team or something? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Pretty sure if all of Scottish Powers customers decided to withhold payments their cashflow would be significantly affected. Not as much as a football clubs, of course. Agreed, at least until Mrs X right hooks you cause you canna heat the hoose!. Look forward to the UoSP customers being formed Edited April 15, 2014 by strichener 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 This is it for me, the ST money is a loan, which diminishes with each game, clubs are not allowed to declare ST money as income in their accounts until the match has taken place, it has to be detailed as deferred income until that point, so in that regard it is a loan and in that regard you could secure an asset against it with the security diminishing over time as matches are played. I also understand that this is completely legal and that it does not even need the fans to withhold ST money, so no need for the trust fund, I understand that this was put to the board and they did not even bother to reply which tells its own story. I will not be buying a ST (I do not believe the club will honour it, they will default on this loan) nor will I be giving money to DK, I am perfectly capable of keeping it in my own bank account and paying for games match by match. No-one is questioning the legality of it. The debate, for me anyway, is why there should be any expectation of getting this security. Your security against the loan, if you want to talk in those terms, is admission to future games. If the games arent play you're entitled to claim your money back as a creditor. Theres no scope in that arrangement to expect further securities to be handed over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Basically the Orcs are looking for an excuse to walk away. Shysters v Shyster part 4. The journey hasn't been as all conquering as they hoped and being a future second prize with no bragging rights at best isn't as appealing as they thought. They are reverting back to pre Murray days and they hate it. It is also good for the new firm and the rest of the diddies as the other arse cheek is lost without it's biggest fan. A&E and battered wives are having a quite drink in celebration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 No-one is questioning the legality of it. The debate, for me anyway, is why there should be any expectation of getting this security. Your security against the loan, if you want to talk in those terms, is admission to future games. If the games arent play you're entitled to claim your money back as a creditor. Theres no scope in that arrangement to expect further securities to be handed over. ^^^This. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Jack D Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I guess it is swapping that security for a game, there are two things at stake (1) the ability of the club to deliver those 18 home league games and (2) the assets in the stadium and training facility and the statement that these would not be sold in order to raise finance. I think the even with the ST money the club know they are going to run out of money and already know they will have reneg on that statement in order to fulfil the contract for ST`s, I also believe this was the plan all along, to strip these assets out before finally selling the PLC while still retaining an income from these essential assets. If Rangers fans do not buy ST`s then this will just accelerate this process but It is better off happening now. With the announcement last week that Rangers (the club, formerly Sevco Scotland) owe £16m and rising to Rangers International (the holding company), how do you see an Administration panning out? How much p in the pound do you think a CVA would need to be to ensure liquidation and a return to the bottom tier is avoided? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John..You're Immortal Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) well, people need to put their money where their mouth is and not rely on the perchance that a sugar daddy might just come along and be the quick fire solution to every current financial problem the club has. the demand for success and high standards is ingrained in the club and coupled with the rivalry with celtic the pressure is constant to return as quickly as possible to the top flight and be the top club in Scotland once again. failure is not an option. so far football wise the train is still on the track and still on time. And there, in a nutshell, is the conundrum of anyone trying to straighten out the breathtaking clusterf*ck that is Rangers. Why is failure not an option? Most would consider being liquidated; being reformed as a new club, dropping 3 divisions;struggling with a shitty manager and the worst team ever to play at ibrox as a tad of a failure. Instead of using this time to redevelop; change 19th Century attitudes and beliefs within the club; bring on and blood young players and cut your cloth to suit where you are playing now and not in 3-5 years, bears like you insist eveyrthing must be defined on your ability to compete at Celtic's level immediately regardless of the danger of re-administration or the potential for more raping of the club's assets by the endless streams of spivs and gangsters it seems to attract. 'So far football wise the train is still on the track and still on time'. Aye ~ on ye go Casey Jones, full steam ahead, never mind that hoofing big hole in the railttrack called reality. Edited April 15, 2014 by John..You're Immortal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I do not know any Rangers fan that is looking for this excuse no matter how much you wish it. I'm sure there's very few willing to voice this opinion. That doesn't mean they're not thinking about it. How many seasons do you think the wonderfully "loyal"* rangers fans will continue to tip up to watch mediocrity (as they see it) before attendances fall off a cliff? ST sales are the start of it - and you yourself are doing a very good job of convincing at least yourself that there are rational reasons for not renewing. What is going to draw you to ibrox when they're lying second or third behind a resurgent Hearts come January? Not the fact that you've already paid for the game, that's for sure.** *Who couldn't sell out their OWN GROUND for the biggest game in their history. And were a bit reluctant to hang on to applaud their "heroes" afterwards, as at Easter Road the week before. **N.B. The "you" in this paragraph refers variously to the Leader and a hypothetical rangers fan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I do not know any Rangers fan that is looking for this excuse no matter how much you wish it. I drink with a load of Rangers fans and to be honest the fight has gone out of them, they have bragging rights with our select band of ton fans as we are now diddes compared to you in league terms, which I can handle. Originally they were all gusto and bravado about the change/new team/history. These days it's more just it's shite. I don't want to speak for them or your fans but as I stated a willingly battered wife analogy probably suits the Rangers fans at the minute.Time to get the jumpers for goalposts out start afresh and drop the WATP and sectarian rubbish. Be A football team not an excuse for a so called elite human being pish that a load of yer fans seem to believe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I drink with a load of Rangers fans and to be honest the fight has gone out of them, they have bragging rights with our select band of ton fans as we are now diddes compared to you in league terms, which I can handle. Originally they were all gusto and bravado about the change/new team/history. These days it's more just it's shite. I don't want to speak for them or your fans but as I stated a willingly battered wife analogy probably suits the Rangers fans at the minute.Time to get the jumpers for goalposts out start afresh and drop the WATP and sectarian rubbish. Be A football team not an excuse for a so called elite human being pish that a load of yer fans seem to believe. I remember a time when we used to compete on a level with Morton*. It was awful. *Or "Andy Ritchie plus the first ten to turn up", as we saw them.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 they are not thinking it. He's the Leader, He's the Leader, He's a muthafuckin' mind reader! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I guess it is swapping that security for a game, there are two things at stake (1) the ability of the club to deliver those 18 home league games and (2) the assets in the stadium and training facility and the statement that these would not be sold in order to raise finance. I think the even with the ST money the club know they are going to run out of money and already know they will have reneg on that statement in order to fulfil the contract for ST`s, I also believe this was the plan all along, to strip these assets out before finally selling the PLC while still retaining an income from these essential assets. If Rangers fans do not buy ST`s then this will just accelerate this process but It is better off happening now. So, are the fans, then, waiving their right to claim any money back as creditors in the event of an insolvency event, in exchange for holding security over the assets? If so, then I understand now what they're proposing. Dont get me wrong, I understand the rationale for putting this forward, just not the expectation that the BoD would simply agree to it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John..You're Immortal Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 they are not thinking it. 'Tis but a flesh wound. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 So, are the fans, then, waiving their right to claim any money back as creditors in the event of an insolvency event, in exchange for holding security over the assets? If so, then I understand now what they're proposing. Dont get me wrong, I understand the rationale for putting this forward, just not the expectation that the BoD would simply agree to it If they had security over the assets then they would own these in the event of a default. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If they had security over the assets then they would own these in the event of a default. Yes. But under normal circumstances they would also be entitled to their money back as creditors. They cant have it both ways, which has been my point all along. The whole point of security over a loan is that you get that instead of your money back. If they are saying they'll hand over their season ticket money, receive their season tickets plus security over the assets and in the event of an insolvency they'll take ownership of the assets but have no rights, as creditors, to claim their remaining season ticket money as well, then fair enough. Is that what theyre saying? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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