Lets All Laugh At Rangers Thread

[Sortmeout]

8 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Well, commenting directly on his statements cannot be anything other than personal. I stand by all I've said. I think the forum has a massive blind-spot here and this lad is hiding in plain sight. What more would you like him to say to out himself as a wrong'un? Would you be saying I was being a bit personal if the club he supported encouraged hatred of black people?

And my persisting with him is related to the point that I disagree is hyperbolic. I can't imagine another context in which an operation like Rangers would be tolerated in public life. Can you? I do not believe we should be letting Rangers fans off with it any more. The only way things will change is if this shite becomes socially unacceptable. That means pointing out that it is at every opportunity and removing the legitimacy bigots hide behind in football.

We don't give a pass to people who are in the EDL or the BNP etc, but we give a pass to Rangers fans, who choose to align themselves with all the shite they do, even when, as AJF has said of himself, they see what is going on.

Honestly, f**k them.

Why do you care so much about how other people view @AJF? Or any other poster?

“Hiding in plain sight”?  Calm down Columbo.

[RandomGuy.]

Yeah @AJF is a poster i like on here, but hes the type of fans whos a major reason the actual bigoted Rangers fans get away with it and why Rangers dont need to try and change.

If you align yourself with them by supporting the same club, then you either use that to try and affect change, or you get tarred with the same brush. Fly with the crows etc.

If its really the "minority" then theres absolutely nothing preventing the "majority" forming a group to both put pressure on the club/fanbase to stop acting the way they do. Rangers fans surely want that so they dont have to bring their kids into that atmosphere? A group of 30k fans saying they wont go to games unless it stops would be a major stance and would be taken seriously, but its clear theres not enough interest within the support to do that.

Instead virtually all the "decent" ones just get defensive, claim they have no choice over supporting Rangers or preventing the songs, and, unconsciously, try and persuade others that its just an inevitable, normal, part of life you cant avoid.

It wont change because too many Rangers fans dont want it to change. Too many grown adults still acting like children who dont believe they can do things to Rangers their parents didnt do and will bring their children up the same way.

Edited September 14, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[Derry Alli]

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Derry Alli

[RandomGuy.]

11 minutes ago, Derry Alli said:

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Im not saying Rangers fans need to act individually in the stadium. If they dont feel safe doing so then thats fair enough IMO.

I dont see whats stopping the "majority" banding together though to put pressure on the club to actually act though. I dont see why anyone would want to put their kid into that atmosphere, so surely enacting change would be a positive as it would mean they could happily continue whats presumably an important family tradition of supporting the club. 

Seen plenty of examples of online campaigns picking up steam and clubs responding to them. If needs be it could relatively anonymous due to the nature of some Rangers fans (RangersMedia types who seem like theyd genuinely try and find your address to threaten you if you started this type of campaign).

Just do something other than normalising it by saying its always been there so theres nothing you can do.

If Saints ever had an overall atmosphere, and i doubt we'll ever have a big enough group appear in our support to do so + dont have the historic "baggage" that encourages it, on similar lines then id definitely be up for putting pressure on the club to get rid. Theyve already banned our "ultra" group in the past for how they acted (particularly at away games) though.

[Jacksgranda]

19 hours ago, madhibby said:

Rangers and sectarianism - where do you start?

I'm a Hibs fan who lives in Glasgow.

And of course the vast majority of Rangers fans assume we Hibbies are "Celtics cousins" and thus must be of the Roman Catholic persuasion and support a United Ireland and the SNP!

Is that fair to Rangers as club? I do go to Ibrox when Hibs are playing there and if my Hibs scarf is seen then my experience is of horrible sectarian abuse of the "****** bast***s" type. And do Rangers do much/anything to discourage this behaviour - I don't think so - there still seems to be a sense of entitlement around the Ibrox hierarchy - we are a Protestant Unionist club (despite adherence to religion falling massively) who support Queen/King and Country and that seems to dominate the clubs thinking. Sectarian chanting is all too common at Ibrox and is probably worse when Hibs are there due to how Hibs are perceived as the catholic enemy. I think sectarian chanting at Ibrox has declined from (say) 30 years ago but it is still too commonplace with the Club doing little about it. And Police Scotland, probably reflecting the make up of the west coast police just seem to accept these horrible hateful and illegal chants.

Living in Glasgow I do come across plenty Rangers fans in non match situations - most folk know I'm a Hibbie  but I try and avoid discussions on what Rangers are about. It usually ends up, if we get to discuss Rangers "values" the usual "whataboutery" - Celtic fans chanting in support of the IRA and Hibs fans being disrespectful to the Royal Family. 

Will it get better? A lot more, predominately young males seem to be supporting their local team via Ultras and maybe in the past they might have been Rangers or Celtic fans - so maybe that is possible an unconscious rebellion against the values of the Old Firm? Rangers fans need to want to make their club change and I dont see much sign of that - they seem to revile in being the Millwall of Scotland - nobody likes us and we dont care - with no attempt to understand why they are so disliked by most other football supporters.

Self hate must be a terrible thing...

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Afraid that's a poor comparison, and you can go to a steward or fans' rep to report such behaviour if you fear for your own safety challenging it, can't imagine The Rangers have the same mechanisms for reporting sectarianism at their games. Or any of their stewards or SLO's would be interested in acting on complaints.

The old society whataboutery excuse often gets rolled out whenever anyone challenges the erse cheek fans too, anything to deflect from them owning their own club's sectarian issue, and actively doing something about it.

[Jaggy McJagface]

2 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

You’ll get a few bad apples in any football crowd or walk of life. 
 

This isn’t a good comparison though, because in the case of rangers it’s clearly not just “a few bad apples” engaging in bigotry because a culture of sectarianism remains rife throughout the club at all levels. In many ways the club’s very identity has been built upon it.

Nobody expects people to start squaring up with people in the stand.

[Dons_1988]

14 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

You’ll get a few bad apples in any football crowd or walk of life. 
 

This isn’t a good comparison though, because in the case of rangers it’s clearly not just “a few bad apples” engaging in bigotry because a culture of sectarianism remains rife throughout the club at all levels. In many ways the club’s very identity has been built upon it.

Nobody expects people to start squaring up with people in the stand.

Yeah I don’t think anyone is judging anyone for not challenging people in the stands. There are plenty of pissed up idiots who are happy to swing a punch at someone who challenges them and that is true of all supports. 

We do know that with enough momentum and enough numbers clubs can be influenced by a fan base, even if they don’t really want to. But the sad fact is there is just not the desire from the non-bigoted element (however big that is) to do so. There’s still a big chunk, I suspect, that find it a bit amusing because it winds up fans they don’t like. 

I still remember being out with my wife (from Belfast, cares not one bit for football or any shit with the troubles) in Edinburgh and 2 guys belting out that they were ‘up to their knees…” and she was genuinely shocked. Couldn’t believe that they felt emboldened to sing that in a city centre. When I said that’s what you get from them most weeks she really couldn’t believe it. 

We underestimate how normalised it is within the game. 

[KirkieRR]

I reember my first away visit to Greyskull on Inverness CT duty, in that miserable wee oxter of the stadium where you are menaced on both sides by standsfull of charmers. The Govan stand belted out all the old Loyalist favourites and on my way out I said to a policeman, 'You'll be reporting the sectarian singing?' and he just blanked and replied, 'Whit sectarian singing?' with a straight face.

[Dons_1988]

12 minutes ago, KirkieRR said:

 Greyskull 

[stressball]

Rangers used to have a screening process in regards to the stewards they used . They seem to work very hard to make sure they are  “Rangers minded.”

The kiosk staff is a bit of a free for all and they accept all comers.

Maybe I’m being disingenuous to them though and it’s the security firm they use for their stewards that seem to send predominantly Rangers fans to steward their games.

They did however, a few years back, as for match day volunteers from their support to do stewarding.

[Molotov]

You only need to listen to the disgusting chants towards Harry Kane at Hampden on Tuesday to realise that there are still significant problems at a national level. 
This was not a few drunken bams. By all accounts it is sung on a regular basis.

 

[gannonball]

Given PnB is open to such bigot sympathisers I think @VincentGuerin should do the right thing and boycott the forum imo. Principles and all that.

[Bairnardo]

12 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Let's not make it out it's just Rangers and Celtic fans. Plenty of times people have posted on here about their own fanbases shouting stuff, be it racist, homophobic or whatever. When asked if they done anything at the time it's always "Nah, there was a few of them/I had my children with me". 

Turning a blind eye and bleating about it online is a problem in our society as a whole. 

Na, there are very few* clubs where it happens in the proportion it does with the cheeks

 

*None IMO but dont want to be speaking in absolutes

[Monkey Tennis]

On 12/09/2023 at 15:35, alta-pete said:

 At 15/16 years old a couple of pals and I got enclosure tickets (can't remember how) for the Dynamo Kiev game. I had never experienced anything like it and I was instantly hooked. Once you've got a team, you're stuck with it I'm afraid.

An interesting choice of game to get you hooked.  

If it's the late 80s game I'm thinking of, it featured incredibly loud, foot stomping renditions of The Billy Boys, complete with gleeful references to "****** blood".   It was a different time and I remember uncritical commentary references to a stunning, incredible atmosphere.  Looked at objectively though, it was pretty toxic and disgusting.  It seems a shame that its effect was so seductive for you.

As for the wider thread, AJF is doing pretty well in fairness.  He's clearly a decent guy, but Vincent is onto something when pointing out that the emperor isn't fully dressed.

I'm not claiming a direct equivalence, because national teams aren't the same as clubs.  Similarly, I don't think the SFA does much to promote vile sentiment for commercial reasons or otherwise.  However, the point about Scotland fan behaviour the other night is not totally without relevance.  It is possible to support a team, safe in the knowledge that lots of arseholes do too:  arseholes who are prepared to act badly in a way that uses that support as a vehicle. 

[alta-pete]

@Monkey Tennis you have a very detailed account of events well beyond mine. And that me as a wide eyed stone cold sober teenager in the ground. I, and I may be wrong but, suspect you’re making up shite to play to the gallery. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by alta-pete

[Monkey Tennis]

6 minutes ago, alta-pete said:

@Monkey Tennis you have a very detailed account of events well beyond mine. And that me as a wide eyed stone cold sober teenager in the ground. I, and I may be wrong but, suspect you’re making up shite to play to the gallery. 

I'm really not.

Is it the same game I'm thinking of?  Falco scored after the goalkeeper made a mess of throwing it out, and McCoist scored a header that he actually misdirected?  If so, we're of similar ages, and I remember it fairly clearly.  

I'm clearly treading a fairly neutral line on the wider question, so your charge doesn't really stick.

[RuMoore]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

Na, there are very few* clubs where it happens in the proportion it does with the cheeks

 

*None IMO but dont want to be speaking in absolutes

My issue with people being so absolute on the matter and saying things like every Rangers fan is a bigot or at least complicit doesn't give way for the fact abhorrent behaviour is clearly relative and exists within most football teams. 

What's the percentage of a fan base that means the non participants of poor behaviour are considered guilty?

I've seen people that refer to fanbases singing about historic battles being ridiculous yet they're happy singing Flower of Scotland with a passion like they fought in the battles themselves. We saw that abhorrent Harry Kane song get sung by a depressingly large percentage of people...

A lot of the larger fanbases have a big percentage of bams that engage in stupid offensive chants or hooliganism, are Hibs fans guilty of supporting a club where a massive proportion of fans sang anti-refugee songs or should Aberdeen fans that are sensible not disassociate with their club due to their fans exuberance when it comes to sectarian terms? 

I think most of the posters on here aren't inclined to engage in the behaviour I've listed above and I don't think they should be held accountable for others actions and words. 

Either we need to judge people as individuals or we need to provide some nerdy xG statistic to determine what level of reprehensible behaviour is allowed before you can support certain clubs. 

 

 

[Monkey Tennis]

22 minutes ago, alta-pete said:

@Monkey Tennis you have a very detailed account of events well beyond mine. And that me as a wide eyed stone cold sober teenager in the ground. I, and I may be wrong but, suspect you’re making up shite to play to the gallery. 

Hey, whaddayaknow?

 

I thought I might have to wait until something happened on the field for the choir to get going, but they instead provide a lovely intro.

By the way, the current conflict in Ukraine must really blow Archie MacPherson's mind. 

[Bairnardo]

4 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

My issue with people being so absolute on the matter and saying things like every Rangers fan is a bigot or at least complicit doesn't give way for the fact abhorrent behaviour is clearly relative and exists within most football teams. 

What's the percentage of a fan base that means the non participants of poor behaviour are considered guilty?

I've seen people that refer to fanbases singing about historic battles being ridiculous yet they're happy singing Flower of Scotland with a passion like they fought in the battles themselves. We saw that abhorrent Harry Kane song get sung by a depressingly large percentage of people...

A lot of the larger fanbases have a big percentage of bams that engage in stupid offensive chants or hooliganism, are Hibs fans guilty of supporting a club where a massive proportion of fans sang anti-refugee songs or should Aberdeen fans that are sensible not disassociate with their club due to their fans exuberance when it comes to sectarian terms? 

I think most of the posters on here aren't inclined to engage in the behaviour I've listed above and I don't think they should be held accountable for others actions and words. 

Either we need to judge people as individuals or we need to provide some nerdy xG statistic to determine what level of reprehensible behaviour is allowed before you can support certain clubs. 

 

 

I think simply put, you would consider both aspects of, is it a minority, and are the club involved doing as much as can be expected to stamp it out. 

Il give you an example. At Falkirk, there's a small number of fans routinely mock the death of Norrie McCathie. I don't believe this is in breach of any laws (but prepared to to educated there). Most Falkrik fans find this abhorrent and the club themselves do to, and have said as much. 

All cross sections of society have a number of arseholes in them. This clearly must apply to all fambases large and small. The test is surely is it endemic, or are the arseholes hugely outnumbered so as not to be the defining characteristics of the fanbase. I'm afraid in Rangers case I don't believe you can answer no to that honestly