Scottish Football Reconstruction

[Bazil85]

 

gap between bottom of SPL & top of championship is still a bit steep

top of championship to bottom is a bit steep aswell

 

That's why a 16 team or 12 or 20 would be best. It keeps teams that have fallen away in the top division and spreads the wealth. Teams like Partick, Raith, Falkirk, Dunfermline will get a bigger bite of the cherry instead of falling further and further behind. The 12 12 all its doing is having 4 clubs play 4 lower SPL teams twice then get bounced back to Division one with maybe one or two exceptions over a few year period.

[relichtie]

  

The SPL certainly can win you know how? By modeling a plan Scottish football fans want i.e a bigger top flight as well as fair income distribution and democratic voting rights. Less money in the short term sure but it's delivering what fans want and gives Scotland a chance for a better future as a footballing nation. Sounds like a win to me.

Sounds like a win to me as well.

[Dunning1874]

Again the theme carrying through the document from Killie is that this is all about limiting the number of meaningless games, then entirely missing the point that it will cause just as many meaningless games in the lead-up to the middle eight, with sides already certain to be in it having nothing to play for for at least a month in the build up - the situation Dundee, Partick, Morton and Dunfermline would have been in this season. That's before considering that it's a nonsensical clusterfuck; there is simply no means of ensuring the middle eight is not extremely unfair on some of the sides involved. It's unworkable.

The eighteen has to have two automatic relegation places in addition to one or two playoff places, there's no good reason to take a baby step towards that. If there's a fear that the likes of East Stirling would vote no if automatic relegation places are proposed, why would they vote for the possibility of relegation through a playoff anyway? If they're going to vote against it on the fear of automatic relegation, which I doubt they would anyway, they'd vote against playoffs too. Make it automatic relegation from the start, we don't want a closed shop.

A better share of revenue is welcome, but no surprise to see next to nothing trickles down to the third tier.

Again, there are welcome changes here, but I don't see why we can't merge the league bodies, arrange an alternative method of revenue sharing and prepare for a pyramid while keeping the number of teams in each league as they are for now with a commitment to continue discussions on restructuring to a system that isn't batshit mental. There's not been a single argument to explain why the proposed structure of the leagues is any better than what we have now, and the Killie document's criticism of the current 12 is that only one team is relegated. Duh, add another relegation place then.

I should point out that I don't like the current system either, but it's certainly better than the unworkable nonsense that's being offered as an alternative.

[Monkey Tennis]

There's not been a single argument to explain why the proposed structure of the leagues is any better than what we have now,

Rubbish. There have been several and they appear earlier in this thread as well as in the Killie document.

[Monkey Tennis]

   

The 12 12 all its doing is having 4 clubs play 4 lower SPL teams twice then get bounced back to Division one with maybe one or two exceptions over a few year period.

You're basing this belief on nothing at all.

Such evidence as exists - that gathered in countries which have actually tried the system - suggests that an average of between one and two clubs will swap places each season. Currently, it's always just one.

[TheLip69]

You're basing this belief on nothing at all.

Such evidence as exists - that gathered in countries which have actually tried the system - suggests that an average of between one and two clubs will swap places each season. Currently, it's always just one.

I would contest that he's basing that belief on a knowledge of Scottish Football rather than a nerdish view of splits, aperturas, clausaras, and playoffs from around the World.

Each of the countries that tried it got rid of it again.

The problem with Scotland is that below the OF the standard is poor, and below the SPL the standard is poorer still. In my opinion there is much more chance of an SPL team winning over a 14 match slog, than there is for a side from the SFL.

I have said this before but the situation in Scotland is so unique, I dont think you can adequately compare us with any other nation.

I'm not arguing against the two 12's, although I'd prefer two 10's, it's the 3 x 8's that shouldn't be given house room.

[Dunning1874]

Rubbish. There have been several and they appear earlier in this thread as well as in the Killie document.

There have been several attempts at them, but none of them stand up to scrutiny. There is not a single convincing argument in favour of 8x8x8.

[Bazil85]

 

You're basing this belief on nothing at all.

Such evidence as exists - that gathered in countries which have actually tried the system - suggests that an average of between one and two clubs will swap places each season. Currently, it's always just one.

 

Any league structure has to have the potential for promotion from the second tier to the top tier based on merit against clubs at that level. To say you need to outplay 4 clubs that have been playing higher than you, have had more money than you and obviouslly better players than you is crazy. The bottom four will have teams designed to perform at that level the SPL teams have an advantage of stronger teams based on more money at a higher level. It is not fair to expect the top 4 first division teams to base promotion hopes on games played home and away against better teams. The full system is flawed, it won't work, it's not fair and it's not what fans want. It needs scrapped. You may get one or two teams from the first Division going up but I would say more often than not it will be the 4 SPL teams. I am actually baffled that this plan still exists and some fans actually think it will be a good thing. It's worse than Status Quo! Unbelievable.

[Bazil85]

 

There have been several attempts at them, but none of them stand up to scrutiny. There is not a single convincing argument in favour of 8x8x8.

 

100% agree if it was an option of 8-8-8 or a 16 or 18 or 20 team top league and the financial outcome of both was the exact same, what would Doncaster promote? Obviously a 16/18/20 because it's more popular and a better league structure. All the excuses that 8-8-8 would be more exciting and less meaningless games is rubbish to try and convince us to buy into it for £££ reasons.

[HibeeJibee]

There are several possible arguments other than financial ones why smaller divisions are better than larger ones in a scenario such as ours.

They include depth, what McLeish & Levein termed 'best v best development'... strength of the league below... and meaningless mid-tables.

But regardless, the financial argument exists. It's professional football.

[Bazil85]

 

There are several possible arguments other than financial ones why smaller divisions are better than larger ones in a scenario such as ours.

They include depth, what McLeish & Levein termed 'best v best development'... strength of the league below... and meaningless mid-tables.

But regardless, the financial argument exists. It's professional football.

 

Ignoring fans choice, Playing same teams four times, old and failed previous systems are all reasons why smaller leagues should not be brought back. By that argument why don't we have a top league off two? Then have Dundee United, Aberdeen, Heart, Hibs and Motherwell in a league one then have everyone else play each other as much as they feel like. We wan't bigger leagues to spread wealth, have more Scottish players playing at higher levels, have the oportunity for good play off games. It makes a lot more sense to have bigger leagues than smaller ones.

[HibeeJibee]

It makes more sense to have smaller leagues than bigger ones, and/or have 4x playing.

And what fan choice are we talking about? Fan preference is for larger, but that doesn't necessarily mean larger with 2x playing.

And what fans prefer isn't necessarily what fans act upon... a big argument against 16/18 is lower crowds.

[Bazil85]

 

It makes more sense to have smaller leagues than bigger ones, and/or have 4x playing.

And what fan choice are we talking about? Fan preference is for larger, but that doesn't necessarily mean larger with 2x playing.

And what fans prefer isn't necessarily what fans act upon... a big argument against 16/18 is lower crowds.

 

Alright Doncaster pipe down! Don't want to win any popularity contests and all that.

[TheLip69]

There are several possible arguments other than financial ones why smaller divisions are better than larger ones in a scenario such as ours.

They include depth, what McLeish & Levein termed 'best v best development'... strength of the league below... and meaningless mid-tables.

But regardless, the financial argument exists. It's professional football.

We are well aware that there is a financial argument, but that argument, while important, shouldnt be the main criteria for change. You are hanging your every argument on finances, with the occasional swipe at meaningless games.

The game is dying, our league doesnt even have a sponsor.

We have a league where every season we know who will win it, and it doesnt take too long before we know who is getting relegated as well. Its February and, European places apart, the season is over.

Do you really find the battle to make the top 6 thrilling? Personally, I dont, if we are in with a shout of qualifying for Europe fine, if not I will be happy finishing anywhere from 5th to 11th. I dont get any kick out of finishing in the top 6, I dont know anyone who does. Yes it may mean the club gets a few extra bawbees but its hardly open top bus time for the fans, is it?

[TheLip69]

It makes more sense to have smaller leagues than bigger ones, and/or have 4x playing.

And what fan choice are we talking about? Fan preference is for larger, but that doesn't necessarily mean larger with 2x playing.

And what fans prefer isn't necessarily what fans act upon... a big argument against 16/18 is lower crowds.

I would argue that the last time Motherwell played in an 18 team league their average crowd would have been higher than what they get today. Considering that we used to get twice as many OF fans then than we do now.

These days we rarely get anymore than 9000, those days it used to be around 20-23,000. With Airdrie in the league at the time as well I am pretty sure we had better crowds then than today.

[Monkey Tennis]

We have a league where every season we know who will win it, and it doesnt take too long before we know who is getting relegated as well. Its February and, European places apart, the season is over.

Indeed. Lets not touch such a system then. That would be simply crazy.

[Monkey Tennis]

I would contest that he's basing that belief on a knowledge of Scottish Football rather than a nerdish view of splits, aperturas, clausaras, and playoffs from around the World.

Each of the countries that tried it got rid of it again.

The problem with Scotland is that below the OF the standard is poor, and below the SPL the standard is poorer still. In my opinion there is much more chance of an SPL team winning over a 14 match slog, than there is for a side from the SFL.

I have said this before but the situation in Scotland is so unique, I dont think you can adequately compare us with any other nation.

I'm not arguing against the two 12's, although I'd prefer two 10's, it's the 3 x 8's that shouldn't be given house room.

I totally reject this.

The fall off in standard once we get below the OF (leaving current peculiarities aside) is actually pretty gradual as evidenced by how well promoted sides generally do in the SPL and by how badly those getting relegated from it, struggle. This saves us even looking at Cup trends, which you'd naturally dismiss.

The only unique thing about Scotland is our two outsized clubs. That's not particularly relevant however as we descend the ladder.

[HibeeJibee]

We are well aware that there is a financial argument, but that argument, while important, shouldnt be the main criteria for change. You are hanging your every argument on finances, with the occasional swipe at meaningless games.

The game is dying, our league doesnt even have a sponsor.

My first criteria is making leagues as interesting and exciting as possible... big leagues do that worse. I favour smaller (but not too small such as 8/10) divisions for that reason and recognising £££. Finance is important - vital, infact - but it's not the only reason.

Similarly why I favour 4x playing, and splits in 12/14/etc.

Also - "Wur game's deid" is a tired, hysteria-driven soundbyte.

[Apache Don]

My first criteria is making leagues as interesting and exciting as possible... big leagues do that worse. I favour smaller (but not too small such as 8/10) divisions for that reason and recognising £££. Finance is important - vital, infact - but it's not the only reason.

Similarly why I favour 4x playing, and splits in 12/14/etc.

Also - "Wur game's deid" is a tired, hysteria-driven soundbyte.

I totally reject this.

The fall off in standard once we get below the OF (leaving current peculiarities aside) is actually pretty gradual as evidenced by how well promoted sides generally do in the SPL and by how badly those getting relegated from it, struggle. This saves us even looking at Cup trends, which you'd naturally dismiss.

The only unique thing about Scotland is our two outsized clubs. That's not particularly relevant however as we descend the ladder.

Agree. Ultimately, the only way to a competitive top flight in Scotland, is by getting shot of the toxic twins.

[SpoonTon]

I have a headache this morning, and with that I have decided that 14-18-18 is the (initial, at least) way forward.

A 8-6 split in the top flight, with the bottom 8 acting a bit like the middle 8 in the 8-8-8. Except with 2 automatic relegation spots and 2 play-off semi-final spots. They would play the winner of the 3-6 placed semi-final winners from the second tier. Same format between the 2nd and 3rd tier and between the 3rd tier and the pyramid.

Finding 8 new clubs will be easy, and will really kick start the pyramid system (and then then can vote the 3rd tier into the pyramid system, mwahaha).

And with that, I'm away for a lie down...