Scottish Football Reconstruction

[Burnie_man]

I don't see how it's short-termism at all, I would advocate 4x playing whatever the term we're talking about. And for all that 4x playing might be unpopular, experience here (and some comparisons abroad where countries have switched from 4x to 2x or vice versa or done so and gone back) suggests that 'being unpopular' is one thing, but attending or not attending is decidely another.

You are therefore part of the problem if you think retaining 4x is the answer, it is clearly and demonstrably not.

As I said, we've had the example of Hibs given here and there's no way 2x playing in a 16 or 18 can be better for crowds than some form with 4x playing. There's fewer games for a start - so you actually need to get the average up simply to tread water. And then there's only 1 derby, only 1 Celtic match, only 1 Aberdeen match, and so on. Then a substantial element of matches are against small clubs with smaller travelling supports and less attractiveness than existing SPL sides (e.g. Livingston, Raith, Morton). Then all placed in a big league - so there's rarely if ever a liklihood of Hibs being in a relegation fight, and there's no split. So if Hibs have a middling season there's nothing to play for, for ages, breeding meaningless games.

......and given the reduction in travelling supports where even the OF failed to sell out many allocations last season, then its a very moot point. There were several calculations done on the back of Rangers demise that showed only a slight increase in attendances was required to take up the slack from one half of the OF dollar.

As for playing less home games, again, long term planning can account for this by shaping budgets to suit in preparation.

And I don't think Aberdeen-Livingston would've got more than Aberdeen-Hibs in similar circumstances (i.e. date/time, position of Aberdeen in table). I can't possibly see what one could substantiate that claim with. Plus Aberdeen-Livi has less appeal for TV than Aberdeen-Hibs.

We're arguing from a position of 9 meetings in 17 months between Aberdeen v Hibs. That will go a very long way towards understanding why there were only 7,000/8,000 inside Pittodrie. Boredom.

Livingston are a bad example anyway, take Partick Thistle or Morton or Dunfermline or Falkirk, I don't consider a home game against them to be any less attractive to a game against Hibs (on the basis of one home game per season). Partick Thistle for the first time, of Hibs for the 9th time? I know which I'd rather watch.

[EdTheDuck]

Do you think, with the introduction of 8x8x8, and with Rangers coming back in a couple of seasons, Aberdeen will ever see 14,000 at a Hibs game again?

What is there to attract back the missing 6,000/7,000? you guys experienced an up-turn in ST sales on the back of the Rangers fiasco as fans were urged to back their team, looks like they quickly deserted again despite being currently only 5 points off 2nd place.

No, as I've said elsewhere I don't think the 12/12-8/8/8 as it has been presented will make a blind bit of difference but I also don't think a switch to 16 or 18 would make a positive difference and could be a disaster. There's a whole host of problems that need fixing before X2 playing becomes a priority

[HibeeJibee]

You are therefore part of the problem if you think retaining 4x is the answer, it is clearly and demonstrably not.

......and given the reduction in travelling supports where even the OF failed to sell out many allocations last season, then its a very moot point. There were several calculations done on the back of Rangers demise that showed only a slight increase in attendances was required to take up the slack from one half of the OF dollar.

As for playing less home games, again, long term planning can account for this by shaping budgets to suit in preparation.

We're arguing from a position of 9 meetings in 17 months between Aberdeen v Hibs. That will go a very long way towards understanding why there were only 7,000/8,000 inside Pittodrie. Boredom.

Livingston are a bad example anyway, take Partick Thistle or Morton or Dunfermline or Falkirk, I don't consider a home game against them to be any less attractive to a game against Hibs (on the basis of one home game per season). Partick Thistle for the first time, of Hibs for the 9th time? I know which I'd rather watch.

Regarding the bold, well that's your opinion and myself and others differ.

The underlined suggests you're putting the cart before the horse i.e. "priority is to have 2x playing, even if it means fewer games/lower crowds/pressured budgets".

And I simply don't think the italicised is correct: fans do not regard all clubs as similarly attractive, even back in 2x eras they didn't. Nor does TV, which is a factor nowadays.

[Burnie_man]

No, as I've said elsewhere I don't think the 12/12-8/8/8 as it has been presented will make a blind bit of difference but I also don't think a switch to 16 or 18 would make a positive difference and could be a disaster. There's a whole host of problems that need fixing before X2 playing becomes a priority

I think 16/18 team leagues are what the (majority) or fans want, they are the customers. The bigger disaster will come if clubs vote for more of the same.

[Burnie_man]

Regarding the bold, well that's your opinion and myself and others differ.

Polls and surveys suggest you are wrong.

The underlined suggests you're putting the cart before the horse i.e. "priority is to have 2x playing, even if it means fewer games/lower crowds/pressured budgets".

The underlined bit relates to long term planning. I don't think we should change the leagues next season or the season after, my preference is level headed long term planning with the ultimate goal of 2 x 16/18 team leagues with play-offs, and regionalisation below that.

Short term if change is insisted upon now, then 14x14x14 is a compromise although has much of the same problems as 12x12x18 or 12x12x10x10

And I simply don't think the italicised is correct: fans do not regard all clubs as similarly attractive, even back in 2x eras they didn't. Nor does TV, which is a factor nowadays.

Well after decades of boredom playing the same teams time after time after time, what attraction will playing Hibs/Aberdeen for the 10th time in 20 months hold over playing Partick Thistle once? Again, listen to the fans, not Doncaster and club chairman, a more discredited bunch you'd be hard pressed to find.

[HibeeJibee]

Well, it seems categoric SPl clubs won't vote for 16/18/20.

Even if 12-12 > 8-8-8 does not work, it could be changed - say 12-12 using current SPL model, or 14-10 (splitting 6/8 or 7/7)?

EDIT: Also, from your new post - what polls and surveys show is that people would prefer 2x playing. That's not the same as 2x playing being optimal/viable, or 2x playing actually improving attendances.

[Burnie_man]

Well, it seems categoric SPl clubs won't vote for 16/18/20.

Refer to my point about Doncaster and Club Chairman above, ignore their support at their peril!

Even if 12-12 > 8-8-8 does not work, it could be changed - say 12-12 using current SPL model, or 14-10 (splitting 6/8 or 7/7)?

Nobody wants 12!

[TheLip69]

Nobody wants 12!

Hibeejibee does with splits, play offs, and dancing girls, but only if he cant get 10.

[TheLip69]

The SPL clubs will vote for 12-12 and 3 x 8 all day long. It means two extra in the top bracket and a repercharge before relegation. Minted. The SFL are getting a wee bung to sit back and take it up the jacksie.

I would quite happily accept 12-12 if it was a temporary measure to strengthen the lower leagues and eventually become an 18-24, but that 3 x 8 is just fucking ludicrous.

[HibeeJibee]

Hibeejibee does with splits, play offs, and dancing girls, but only if he cant get 10.

Not at all... adopting 10 wouldn't be desirable.

It's retracting, which is different to not expanding.

It potentially breeds excessive relegation fear.

And it doesn't have a split.

I've consistently said my ideal is 12 (ideally with a balanced split, of which 12-12 > 8-8-8 is an example) or 14 splitting 6/8 for 36/40-games.

[relichtie]

I think 16/18 team leagues are what the (majority) or fans want, they are the customers. The bigger disaster will come if clubs vote for more of the same.

Unfortunately the fans are not listened to or consulted. The administrators of the game only talk of sponsors, corporate hospitality, TV deals. The paying punters are completely ignored as if we dont count. Where will the game be if all the loyal supporters of clubs decide enough is enough and stop going. Will the prawn sandwich brigade step in and subsidise the clubs. No f****** chance imo.

[DepecheBhoy]

I think 12-12/ 8-8-8 seem like a pretty good idea. Provides competition accross the whole league for the majority of the season. Long term it might not work but alternatively it should he to build up the teams in the 1st div to ber more competitive with SPL standard. Longer term it could lead to A 16/18 team to top flight when teams like Partick, Accies, Raith ect are better set up to compete.

Look at the Celtic Raith game at the weekend.... the pitch was a joke and the standard of the raith team left a lot to be desired. Is that the standard we want to see again in the SPL?

Personally i think the key to reconstruction is to try to creat more fluidity between the SPL and SFL1. The main failure of the SPL has been it closed shop persona. Theres far too many teams that get relegated and dont come back for the better part of a decade. Look at Dundee and Partick. By having more teams moving up and down between the leagues and the shoot out for relegation I think the product and rotation of opponent will brighten up the top div and give genuine incentives for mid table SFL1 in the second part of the season.

[honestloon]

On the day the SPL was formed I knew that it would'nt work.This daft idea wont work either. A few people at Hampden

need to find more suitable employment. Gordon Smith did and now he has a column in the Sunday Post.

[TheLip69]

Look at the Celtic Raith game at the weekend.... the pitch was a joke and the standard of the raith team left a lot to be desired. Is that the standard we want to see again in the SPL?

Thats the standard that the SPL created.

[DepecheBhoy]

True it is the standard that the SPL created because it effective locked teams like Raith out. Once they fell out of the top div mid nineties they have pretty much been stuck in a rutt mainly because they have had little oppotunity to move back up to the top flight. The three groups of 8 gives the better SFL1 team more opportunity to compete with higher level teams and could work as an incubator for teams to develop. If you look at Livingston just now they would qualify for the middle 8 group, most likely wouldnt be strong enough to gain promotion through it but the extra finances and experience gained by their younger players would increase their chances the following season.

Also it would mean that decent 1st Div players would be more likely to be able to hold onto some of thier better players that would currently move to established SPL teams because, 1) better trickle down of finances 2) more opportunity to ply in the top div due to more promotion opportunities.

[Burnie_man]

Unfortunately the fans are not listened to or consulted. The administrators of the game only talk of sponsors, corporate hospitality, TV deals. The paying punters are completely ignored as if we dont count. Where will the game be if all the loyal supporters of clubs decide enough is enough and stop going. Will the prawn sandwich brigade step in and subsidise the clubs. No f****** chance imo.

Looks like Ross County are listening, one more required

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-set-to-vote-against-1595212?fb_action_ids=10151709161947892&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210151709161947892%22%3A379646972134314}&action_type_map={%2210151709161947892%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=

[EdTheDuck]

Looks like Ross County are listening, one more required

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-set-to-vote-against-1595212?fb_action_ids=10151709161947892&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210151709161947892%22%3A379646972134314}&action_type_map={%2210151709161947892%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=

I'd be careful what I wish for. If the 12-12-18 gets voted down then we will be stuck with the status quo in the meantime and the very likely fallout from that is probably going to be a coup d'etat a few years down the line that'll result in the SPL and Div 1/full-time clubs carving out a deal between themselves without any input from the 18.

[Burnie_man]

I'd be careful what I wish for. If the 12-12-18 gets voted down then we will be stuck with the status quo in the meantime and the very likely fallout from that is probably going to be a coup d'etat a few years down the line that'll result in the SPL and Div 1/full-time clubs carving out a deal between themselves without any input from the 18.

Wow, that's a leap! the bottom line is that is the proposed system is shite, and it's still shite regardless of what may or may not happen down the line.

Some people seem to want it just for the sake of change. That's no way to run a railway.

[TheLip69]

I'd be careful what I wish for. If the 12-12-18 gets voted down then we will be stuck with the status quo in the meantime and the very likely fallout from that is probably going to be a coup d'etat a few years down the line that'll result in the SPL and Div 1/full-time clubs carving out a deal between themselves without any input from the 18.

Theres a distinct possibilty that will happen anyway regardless of whether this proposal goes ahead or not.

I am extremely suspicious about the obscene rush to bring this in for the end of next season.

[TheLip69]

True it is the standard that the SPL created because it effective locked teams like Raith out. Once they fell out of the top div mid nineties they have pretty much been stuck in a rutt mainly because they have had little oppotunity to move back up to the top flight. The three groups of 8 gives the better SFL1 team more opportunity to compete with higher level teams and could work as an incubator for teams to develop. If you look at Livingston just now they would qualify for the middle 8 group, most likely wouldnt be strong enough to gain promotion through it but the extra finances and experience gained by their younger players would increase their chances the following season.

Also it would mean that decent 1st Div players would be more likely to be able to hold onto some of thier better players that would currently move to established SPL teams because, 1) better trickle down of finances 2) more opportunity to ply in the top div due to more promotion opportunities.

How much money is going to be trickling down, do we know?

I would suggest the First Division isnt exactly going to be the land of milk and honey some people are making out. The fact that the SPL clubs had to be handed a sweetener that included a possibility of avoiding relegation even after finishing bottom of the league speaks for itself.

This is the first point that struck me when I heard of the proposal, the possibility of no promotion or relegation. I believe this to be the biggest problem, of many, thrown up by this proposal.