Roker Rover Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 No its a non starter for football in this country the franchise system is alien to us. In theory the idea is reasonable but in reality it won't ever work. Yes say 20 teams in a league representing all areas of the country should level the playing field and allow all teams to be more equal with similar crowds and finances and if we were starting from scratch it might be what people would try to do. But we have teams with 100+ years of history and fierce rivalries with there local teams so merging is almost impossible as was proved when Wallace Mercer tried to merge the Edinburgh teams his idea being a joint team would challenge the OF fine in theory but Hearts and Hibs hate each other and would rather go out of business than merge. Then you have trying to merge the regions like the Fife for example getting the Fife teams getting them to merge would be just as hard but then you have the problem of where to play them with the towns of Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline being roughly the same size then what do you call them and what colour do they play in no way the 4 teams would be able to agree same in every region. Even if they managed to merge teams round the country into larger ones it would just end up with every town who lost their team doing what AFC Wimbledon did and you would end up with more teams than before as the fans who have lost their local team would not go over to the next town to watch a merged team that has robbed them of their team. I agree we need less senior teams but mergers will never work best to have less teams at national level with a proper pyramid below. People who support their local teams aren't the problem in Scottish football if we all did that our league would be very healthy as our average attendance is fantastic for the size of our country our problem is too many glory hunters and bigots who travel to Glasgow instead of watching their local team means our league is massively uneven. Surely the answer is within your post. Merge Rangers and Celtic. None of their fans would bother watching them and the uneven nature of the league would be solved at a stroke. Its genius I tell thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Sorry couldn't disagree more; a traditional 16 or 18 or 20 round robin will patently result in more meaningless games (for a given value of meaningless of course*) than a 10 or 12 team league and particularly in a league with a split. If you have 3 European places and 2 relegation places then a 10 team league has an absolute maximum of 5 teams with *nothing to play for*; you make that a 16 team league that maximum jumps to 11 - however you shake that up you are going to have more games over the course of the season with nothing tangible hanging on them above the value of the game itself as a sporting contest obviously - no Championship or European implications, no relegation implications QED meaningless. * The problem is, of course, that the utterly futile nature of our Championship in Scotland, the continuing horror shows in Europe, the lip service paid to The Rest by SKY/ESPN, the ring-fencing of TV money and impoverishment of the DIV One full-time clubs and the stream of promising youngsters heading to minor English clubs has gradually eroded any meaning in our game whatsoever to the extent that almost every pro club has to rely on their hardcore fans, even a 'good season' barely brings in any extra additional fans, *meaningful* games or not. The 12-12-18 won't address those problems; the top 8 will be every bit as tedious and predictable as the top 6 has become and as it would be in a traditional double round robin; SKY/ESPN will continue to be insincere in their support for the SPL/Scottish football and bide their time until they get their 4 games a year back; European performances won't improve markedly and the exodus of kids will likely accelerate as more of them are pitched into first teams. You are not really disagreeing though are you? Imagine having 5 team with nothing to play for in a 12 team league, playing each other 4 times a season thats what 20 games?, and say 11 teams in a 16 team league playing each other twice a season thats what 22 games? Huge difference eh? As I keep saying those games dont disappear they just come against bigger clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magoo9uk Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 "However, the league must not be compromised by changing the rules during the course of the competition and these decisions should not be made on an ad-hoc basis" Peter Lawell, Celtic FC. 22 of April 2008 Mr Sporting Integrity himself...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 You are not really disagreeing though are you? Imagine having 5 team with nothing to play for in a 12 team league, playing each other 4 times a season thats what 20 games?, and say 11 teams in a 16 team league playing each other twice a season thats what 22 games? Huge difference eh? As I keep saying those games dont disappear they just come against bigger clubs. Ehhh disnae quite work with that, meaningless games for a team's support arnae just against other teams wi nothing to play for...if your team in marooned in mediocrity every game is meaningless if you see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Ehhh disnae quite work with that, meaningless games for a team's support arnae just against other teams wi nothing to play for...if your team in marooned in mediocrity every game is meaningless if you see what I mean. No I dont see what you mean, how can a match against a team fighting for the Championship, or a European place, or against relegation be meaningless? It'll mean something to at least one team on the park, therefore cant be a meaningless match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 No I dont see what you mean, how can a match against a team fighting for the Championship, or a European place, or against relegation be meaningless? It'll mean something to at least one team on the park, therefore cant be a meaningless match. However, it will be meaningless to the fans of the team cast adrift in 8th regardless of the opposition and what the opposition are chasing and if you have a 16 team league you will have more teams whose fans will see more games as meaningless than you would in a 10 team league. If Kilmarnock are coasting towards the end of the season with no chance of Europe and no danger of relegation they will not turn out in any great numbers to watch, for example, Celtic even though it may be a vital game for Celtic's title ambitions; for Kimarnock fans it is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sorry to disappoint you, but the rules don't say "no team should be denied promotion ...". They say no MEMBER should be denied promotion. Sevco won't be a member until 2017, so no problem! Sorry to disappoint you but there is no club in Scottish football at any level called Sevco. I think you will find there is an automatic promotion place and a play-off place in the 3rd division. You really must try harder if you want to be a smart ass. Anyway looks like the SFL will say no the nonsense that is 12-12-18 and will propose a 12-12-10-10 which i don't see as much of a change but will give 2 clubs a chance at the SFL and hopefully before the deal is finally drawn up we will have a workable pyramid system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sorry to disappoint you but there is no club in Scottish football at any level called Sevco. I think you will find there is an automatic promotion place and a play-off place in the 3rd division. You really must try harder if you want to be a smart ass. Anyway looks like the SFL will say no the nonsense that is 12-12-18 and will propose a 12-12-10-10 which i don't see as much of a change but will give 2 clubs a chance at the SFL and hopefully before the deal is finally drawn up we will have a workable pyramid system What? Where did the 12-12-10-10 come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spore Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 the daily record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 However, it will be meaningless to the fans of the team cast adrift in 8th regardless of the opposition and what the opposition are chasing and if you have a 16 team league you will have more teams whose fans will see more games as meaningless than you would in a 10 team league. If Kilmarnock are coasting towards the end of the season with no chance of Europe and no danger of relegation they will not turn out in any great numbers to watch, for example, Celtic even though it may be a vital game for Celtic's title ambitions; for Kimarnock fans it is meaningless. In the circumstances you describe, do you really think Killie players or fans would see a home match against Celtic as meaningless?.It's NOT a meaningless match, because it has meaning for at least one side. If two teams out of the running are meeting in a match which has zero effect on the destination of trophies, European places, or relegation then I will grant you, that is, as you suggest, a "meaningless" match. Remember Helicopter Sunday? Celic went to Fir Park needing just a point to win the league and Motherwell had nothing to play for, how meaningless would you judge that match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 There were under 2000 Killie fans at the game last season where Celtic won the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoonTon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Anyway looks like the SFL will say no the nonsense that is 12-12-18 and will propose a 12-12-10-10 which i don't see as much of a change but will give 2 clubs a chance at the SFL and hopefully before the deal is finally drawn up we will have a workable pyramid system How does anyone get what they want in 12-12-10-10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 How does anyone get what they want in 12-12-10-10? If it includes a merged league, smoother financial distribution, pyramid access, etc then it includes lots of what people want? Having the 12-12 also means more opportunity for promotion and increases variety while retaining 4x playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty_Boy Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 10-10 is arguably more attractive than 18. In isolation, the only advantage of 18 is the avoidance of playing sides 4x minimum per season (not a big deal for me), but it is heavily dependant on the pyramid below being robust and I have my doubts that will be achieved in the short term. There were under 2000 Killie fans at the game last season where Celtic won the league. cos uz r all sevco fans wi oot bus farez lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoonTon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 How about 12-18-12 Top tier - Current SPL but with 2 auto relegation and 2 play-off spots. 2nd tier - 2 auto up, 4 play-off, 2 auto down, 2 play-off down 3rd tier - Same format as SPL but with 2 auto up, 2 play-off and 2 auto down to pyramid set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 How about 12-18-12 Top tier - Current SPL but with 2 auto relegation and 2 play-off spots. 2nd tier - 2 auto up, 4 play-off, 2 auto down, 2 play-off down 3rd tier - Same format as SPL but with 2 auto up, 2 play-off and 2 auto down to pyramid set-up. Several oddities in this. Tiers 1 + 3 playing 38 games, but tier 2 playing 34 games. SPL opening much more relegation but into a weaker 2nd tier (owing to fewer games, more part-timers, meaningless mid-table). Wouldn't happen, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHoodedClaw Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Both propositions utterly ignore the fans wishes, it is the same old same old. These fools running football keep getting it wrong, both these ideas are wrong. If implemented we will be back in the same position in two or three years time. More re-construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers lad Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Actually thought with Rangers and Celtic playing in different leagues this was the 1 chance we would have to get rid of the tiresome playing each other 4 times a season. But no what the fans want means nothing to Reegan/Longmuir and Doncaster we have to keep the top divison playing this way so SKY can have their Old Firm games in 3 years time lets face it this is the whole point of 12-12-18 or 12-12-10-10 its no wonder the fans of other teams have walked away when our entire league system is set up to keep 40 teams out the way for the sake of 2. Its about time we started running the game for the fans in this country who go week in week out not people who tune in 4 times a season to watch two teams whose grounds they couldn't find on a map. I really fear for our game when the clowns running it don't listen to the fans which was plain for all to see last summer when they tried to shoehorn in a new team at the top and second level despite the opposition of the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 In the circumstances you describe, do you really think Killie players or fans would see a home match against Celtic as meaningless?.It's NOT a meaningless match, because it has meaning for at least one side. If two teams out of the running are meeting in a match which has zero effect on the destination of trophies, European places, or relegation then I will grant you, that is, as you suggest, a "meaningless" match. Remember Helicopter Sunday? Celic went to Fir Park needing just a point to win the league and Motherwell had nothing to play for, how meaningless would you judge that match? The Killie fans did see it as meaningless; pre-game last season they stated unequivocally that they didn't give a shit about the result of the Celtic game, they were quite happy to turn over the stands to the Celtic fans and see their club rake in a bunch of money. As far as Motherwell supporters were concerned in 2005 I'd imagine it was pretty unimportant - they were 6th and they were staying 6th. I can't imagine that too many of the 13,000 who showed up that day were actually Motherwell fans. Subsequently it became a great point-and-laugh exercise for the Well fans and I'm pretty sure there was a thread that suggested as much. I shouldn't have used Killie-Celtic as an example, I'd forgotten they wrapped the title up at Rugby Park last season... 2010-11 Motherwell were at home to Rangers Mk I in the title run-in, it was a vital game for Rangers and meant nothing to Motherwell and fewer than 9,000 showed up; however, couple years earlier Motherwell met Aberdeen at fir Park with a couple games to go - a win for Motherwell pretty much tied up the UEFA Cup place, a win for Aberdeen meant they'd have been a single point behind...over 8,500 turned out, almost as many as the Rangers game because the game meant something to both sets of fans. In 2007/08 Kilmarnock played Falkirk on the last day of the season, both were safe from relegation and a little over 5,000 turned up; 2 years later they met again on the last day of the season and despite the game being live on telly nearly 11,000 turned up because it had meaning to both sides (and more people watched it on SKY than watched Rangers the following day). 2008-09 ICT-v Falkirk and St. Mirren-v-Accies, both in front of near full houses; the week before Falkirk played St. Mirren in front of a near full house. That is what I mean by meaningful games and it is a league format that is deliberately configured to produce as many of these types of games as possible that I would like to see. However, there's no point in us polluting this thread in a futile argument about semantics, maybe we should open a meaningless-v-meaningful thread and everyone else can avoid our bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Fair enough, lets agree to disagree, by the way the Motherwell v Aberdeen match you mention got sucha big crowd because Motherwell dropped their prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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