Scottish Football Reconstruction

[Lex]

Here's a radical view which hasn't been discussed at all really. Personally, I believe nothing at all needs to be changed. The product is good, fan numbers are good and it's not broke so it doesn't need fixed.

I always laugh at the irony of SFL clubs moaning about not enough relegation and promotion to the SPL. The SFL has no relegation at all from its 4th tier, they should be grateful for the solitary spot the SPL is good enough to give them.

Here's hoping all this reconstruction talk falls through and the status quo remains.

[LongTimeLurker]

....here's hoping all this reconstruction talk falls through and the status quo remains.

Including the lack of relegation from the SFL? The 12-12-18 setup is mental but if it means the end of the SPL's 11-1 voting system and opens up the SFL to new blood through pro/rel, a few season of mayhem with the 12-12/8-8-8 split season system before something more sensible gets introduced (as happened in Austria and Switzerland) is a small price to pay if this is the only way to break the logjam.

[oscar mad]

1357830207[/url]' post='6970273']

Including the lack of relegation from the SFL? The 12-12-18 setup is mental but if it means the end of the SPL's 11-1 voting system and opens up the SFL to new blood through pro/rel, a few season of mayhem with the 12-12/8-8-8 split season system before something more sensible gets introduced (as happened in Austria and Switzerland) is a small price to pay if this is the only way to break the logjam.

And that is the long term view most are missing here ,the duopoly is over ,hence sevcos rage

[Monkey Tennis]

Scottish National League -I only hope that with this being 18,then we won't have to play each other 4 times a season -

D'you think?

I'd assumed a season of 68 league games then 3 cup competitions.

[HibeeJibee]

D'you think?

I'd assumed a season of 68 league games then 3 cup competitions.

In all seriousness though, its a pity 44-games is too many, otherwise I'd copy the old Spanish model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986%E2%80%9387_La_Liga

[Mushroom]

Here's a radical view which hasn't been discussed at all really. Personally, I believe nothing at all needs to be changed. The product is good, fan numbers are good and it's not broke so it doesn't need fixed.

I always laugh at the irony of SFL clubs moaning about not enough relegation and promotion to the SPL. The SFL has no relegation at all from its 4th tier, they should be grateful for the solitary spot the SPL is good enough to give them.

Here's hoping all this reconstruction talk falls through and the status quo remains.

I actually believe there are more problems at our end what with the no relegation resulting in the bottom of SFL3 being horribly stagnant and the quad-annual appearance of some fixtures that are nothing special made even more uninspiring by there regularity. Mid table clash between Annan and Elgin 4x a season? Really?

If we just went ahead and merged SFL2 + 3 into one league and opened up some kind of pyramid it would be a massive help. That's why I'm not terribly upset by 12-12-18 as sizings, although the 8-8-8 bit is really odd and will create meaningless halves of seasons.

[craigkillie]

Rangers will be promoted from the 4th tier to the 3rd tier. So will everyone else in SFL3.

[Rovers lad]

Rangers will be promoted from the 4th tier to the 3rd tier. So will everyone else in SFL3.

Exactly no rules are broken as the Rangers have gone from tier 4 to tier 3 ergo a promotion the fact everyone else is joining them is irrelevant. While the governing bodies would happily move the Rangers into a higher league to fast track them back to the top division to keep SKY happy they know the backlash from the fans would be the same as the summer and the fans would walk away in their droves. I highly doubt they will try and push them up the leagues, Charles Green on the other hand will probably try and force something like this.

[Auld Heid]

Looking for some views into ideas on league reconstruction in Scotland. To my mind the major problem in Scotland is that we have far too many professional clubs, this severely dilutes the financial pool and quality of football. We have 42 Senior clubs in a population of about 5 million. Assuming every person is a fan of football, that gives about 175,000 followers per club. Sounds great, apart from the fact that attendances outside of the old firm are tiny, clubs are failing financially left right and centre and we are being left behind most of Europe both on and off the field.

I appreciate this is very radical, but why don't we have 12 or so professional clubs in Scotland and have one division. These 12 clubs would be formed by smaller teams amalgamating, pulling resources and fan bases and actually creating a competitive league where more than one (previously 2) clubs actually have a hope of winning something. This would create a competitive league, with different winners, higher attendances and quite quickly get a better tv deal, attract better players to the league. Base upon attendances you could have

Celtic, Rangers, Glasgow FC (amalgamate Partick Thistle/St Mirren/queens park) play at nationalstadium. Hearts, Hibs ( though they may want to form Edinburgh FC)Lanarkshire (Motherwell Airdrie Hamilton Albion Rovers)Dundee Dundee Utd (may wish to amalgamate as local population is just 150k)Central Belt team (Livingston Falkirk Dunfermline)Ayrshire (Kilmarnock Ayr st Johnstone)Aberdeen / Grampian With Peterhead The Highlanders - Inverness ElginKings of the South - QofS Stranraer Berwick

The history of each team could be preserved with the lower leagues being made up of the amalgamated teams playing under 21 + 5 overage squad players as a separate club, essentially acting as feeders for the big clubs.

I appreciate this wouldn't be popular with fans initially, but Inverness Caledonian thistle came from a similar process and are thriving! The advantages are clear:

Concentrated cash amongst a smaller number of clubs, so able to compete more in EuropePotential large fan bases for the new clubsFans of clubs actually have a chance of winning something meaningful There would be a squad wage cap, but crucially players developed by each teams wages would not contribute to that cap!

I appreciate this sounds mental and would upset fans initially. Yes Dundee Utd did amazingly well in Europe in the 80s, but now - now the game in Scotland is dying, and we need to do something radical to improve the product. What chance do the likes of Dundee Aberdeen have now of ever reaching a european final? Why is playing in the champions league with 'success' being getting out of the group stage and collecting a big cheque (not winning it like has happened before) the best we can aim for as a nation?

Comments on the new super league appreciated. Why should we be looking to Atlantic leagues etc when we have the makings of a great domestic competitn right here?

Being realistic the only part of the post I agree with is that less is more.

To many meaningless teams (sorry) - who have a fan base which is no more than Junior Football. So in real terms they contribute very little to Scottish Football in financial or footballing terms - history confirms this not many trophies/leagues won etc. I appreciate that isn't a popular statement and many will leap to the defence of their own team (as would I if faced with criticism)

Unfortunately the idea of a focal team representing say Ayrshire or Fife is unlikely to gain any real support (despite the sense of such an idea - pooling finances and support bases etc) As you will always be left with the tribalism of the Scottish Supporter who is unlikely to support such a change - would be more liable to then go toward either Rangers or Celtic than this new team.

Pyramids would be unlikely to work either - My own club Linlithgow Rose are a big team in the Juniors - take them out of this environment and they wouldn't suddenly get an influx of fans - finances if anything would be even more tighter as cost increase. But more importantly they would be more than liable to become just an ordinary team in a bigger pond going nowhere fast. So in real terms what would this achieve Linlithgow? Nothing as far as I can see.

[relichtie]

Latest news.

Scottish Football Chiefs bring in a new consultancy team to oversee reconstruction.

[HibeeJibee]

To many meaningless teams (sorry) - who have a fan base which is no more than Junior Football. So in real terms they contribute very little to Scottish Football in financial or footballing terms - history confirms this not many trophies/leagues won etc.

Lets remember only a handful of Junior clubs attract attendances approaching those of SFL clubs. Your decent Juniors might get a big crowd for a derby or important cup-tie, but they are not averaging 300-400-500-600 for regular games. Your bold depends on what you think they should be contributing.

Unfortunately the idea of a focal team representing say Ayrshire or Fife is unlikely to gain any real support (despite the sense of such an idea

People often say this - but I think it is tosh, actually.

Firstly... what is the sense? Is is that clubs who can't be "big" clubs don't matter? I think it's far more sensible to have 1 Senior league club in Ayr, and 1 in Kilmarnock, than one for "Ayrshire" playing in Kilmarnock.

Secondly, very few sporting clubs in Britain draw support from "a region". Ross County do, also the Irish pro-teams in rugby union, but almost all clubs draw their identity (and most of their supporters) from settlements. Cities and towns.

[beermonkey]

some good news here.

Seating & USH rules to be scrapped & pyramid structures in place ?

All that's needed now is to bin the 12-12-18 joke.

[LeithKillie]

IF WE MUST HAVE 12, 12,18 SET UP WITH MID SEASON SPLIT

If we must have the top two leagues (SPL and SFL1*) splitting into 3x8 Leagues (A, B and C) then we need to consider more incentives for teams destined for the middle league. The main argument is all the points returning to zero in middle league B, which can be a disincentive for teams at the bottom of the top tier SPL in the first half of the season. This is because they would know they were definitely going to the middle League B. They would not care about what points they had at the time of the split and similarly this would apply to top of SFL1.

1. League positions in the middle league B are first decided on new points total for games played in the middle league B –normal way
2. If points are the same between one team that came from the lower division SFL1 and one team that came from the upper division SPL -them Goal Difference and then Goal Average should apply – normal way
3. However if points accrued from middle league B games are the same between two teams who were in the same original league (2 from SPL or 2 from SPL1): then the points total from the earlier league total at the time of the split should apply to decide which of these teams should finish above the other.
4. If in point 3 the two teams also had the same points total from the earlier league then GD and then GA should apply.
5. This could lead to conflicts which are resolved by the simple rule that no team on the same middle league points as a team that they were above prior to the split can finish below the pre split league team.

If it was happening this season for example Dundee would need to get more points in the middle league than a current SPL team demoted to the middle -to finish above them.

If it was happening this season every team in the SPL (except Dundee now as they have become too far behind but obviously currently care about where they are now) has a lot to play for under my suggestion. The top six teams in the first would also have something to play for.

I also think there should be trophies for the winners of all 5 leagues discussed above and the league below obviously.

*for simplicity using current names

　

　

if it was happening this season then Dundee would have no incentive to try for the remaining matches.

They would if it was agreed that if at the end of the middle league season Dundee had the same points on the new restarted league as a team that they were previously in

[QOS Sean]

This idea is based on greed,nothing more nothing less. The idea that all clubs will be better off financially is farcical in the extreme. Where is all this new money coming from? .

The current SPL/1st Division clubs will support this and no doubt my own club will. That does not make it right even if i support my team.

This will go through. The 2nd and 3rd division clubs will be railroaded into accepting this with the ultimatum being if you don't agree we will invite our preferred teams to join. The preferred teams no doubt being clubs with close friends on Division 1 boardrooms.

Any cash pay off will be minimal,the smaller clubs are going to be shafted while the footballing super powers of Airdrie,Hamilton and Livingston will gain. Three glowing examples there.

The knock on effect will be quick and drastic as the bottom division will become very weak as wages will drop with players understandably opting to play junior..

Many clubs will either fold(unlikely) but will playing SOS,EOS,HL.Finances will force this.

[Monkey Tennis]

If points are the same between one team that came from the lower division SFL1 and one team that came from the upper division SPL -then Goal Difference and then Goal Average should apply – normal way

I don't think Goal Average has been used in this way since the 1960s.

[Mushroom]

Had a thought. 2x14 team leagues seem to be a good fit for the teams we have but 14 team leagues present problems in that either a split would be required or you'd play each other 3x, which would give an unequal number of home and away games.

I think I have a solution - shoot me down if I'm being bonkers - the details of it would be quite complicated (leave it to a brainiac/computer to sort them), but the concept is quite simple and I believe - fair.

Make your three rounds of fixtures, first two rounds give you 13 home games and 13 away games and leave the final 13 games venues' unconfirmed. Then after the first two rounds of fixtures (26 games) teams placed 1-7 get an extra home game as a small bonus for finishing in the top 7.

You could do this by seeing the teams 1-14 and setting the venues in a pre-determined pattern (enter brainiac/computer - would only need done once ever) based on those seedings. (eg. Team 1 playing all even numbered teams at home and all odd numbered teams away from home. Team 2 would play teams 3,5,7,9,11,13 and maybe 14? at home)

The basic gist is - you get 26 games on an equal footing, and at that point if you finish in the top 7 - your prize is an extra home game in the run in. Rather than being an inequality it is an earned bonus. Also, it would not give any team in the promotion/relegation battles an immediate advantage over any of their rivals.

If this works I would probably favour 14-14-18-regionals that work out what size works best for them.

[relichtie]

From the Sunday Mail "The blazers claim critics are too thick to get it. But most people understand it perfectly and thats exactly why they're not buying it" . My seniments exactly. Stop talking about money and start trying to do whats best for Scottish football.

[craigkillie]

Anything which starts "the blazers" is highly likely to have been written by a moron. Who was the journalist responsible?

[Monkey Tennis]

From the Sunday Mail "The blazers claim critics are too thick to get it. But most people understand it perfectly and thats exactly why they're not buying it" . My seniments exactly. Stop talking about money and start trying to do whats best for Scottish football.

I've a feeling the blazers might be right here. Not many of the crticisms I've read on here or elsewhere strike me as particularly valid.

[TheLip69]

'Big' leagues generated 1 non-OF champion between 1904 and 1948.

Aye, Motherwell in 1932, but he was saying that the leagues were more competitive, and in Scotland we know that makes no difference to whether tyhe OF win it or not. Motherwell were at their peak when the won the title in 1932 a spell in which they didn't finish outside the top 3 in a 7 year period. Airdrie also had a three year spell in the early 1920's as runners up, Hearts were also in the running several times, Falkirk finished runners up a couple of times in the early years of last century. The points gap back then wasn't as high as it is now. Given that the majority of that period was during a Worldwide recession, it's easy to speculate that the richer clubs would be more likely to win titles.

Also, 1948 was the second season back after the 2nd World War, you have to deduct the seasons between 1939 and 1946. Interestingly, you completely left out the seasons between 1948 and 1965 in which Aberdeen, Hibs (3 times), Hearts (Twice) Dundee, and Kilmarnock all won titles.