Scottish Football Reconstruction

[TheLip69]

this proposal does seem to deliver

* 1 governing body

* smoothed-out financial distribution

* much more promotion/relegation opportunity into SPL

* pyramid

* relaxed ground criteria

* other details (e.g. ending 11-1 voting)

which everyone wants.

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I fail to see how this offers an increase of promotion into the SPL, when there is a distinct possibility, that no-one could be promoted at all. I would suggest that the chances of promotion are effectively fewer.

I thought the pyramid had not yet been confrmed, they were hoping to bring it in for 2015-16 after consultations.

Explain the smoothed out financial distribution, is there a prize for winning SPL2? What does the team who finishes bottom of the SPL get, and if that same team finishes top of the middle 8 do they get anymore? If the team that finishes top iof SPL2 then finishes bottom of the middle 8 and the team that finishes 4th in SPL2 is promoted, who gets the most money?

[itzdrk]

Why would they? The clubs will be facing new opponents and fighting for their lives in a relegation battle. Both of those things are likely to improve crowds.

the majority of football fans dont go to games to watch the opposition IMO

[HibeeJibee]

I fail to see how this offers an increase of promotion into the SPL, when there is a distinct possibility, that no-one could be promoted at all. I would suggest that the chances of promotion are effectively fewer.

Explain the smoothed out financial distribution, is there a prize for winning SPL2? What does the team who finishes bottom of the SPL get, and if that same team finishes top of the middle 8 do they get anymore? If the team that finishes top iof SPL2 then finishes bottom of the middle 8 and the team that finishes 4th in SPL2 is promoted, who gets the most money?

I did say more opportunity for promotion, tbf. But in all of Austria, Switzerland, and Georgia it always averaged more than 1-up-1-down... they averaged 1.6, 1.1 and 2 infact. I don't see it ending-up in less movement than now.

Regarding the financial distribution, no actual breakdowns or figures have appearred in the papers, but all the club officials quoted in the press (both SPL and SFL) have been saying that it smooths-out the financial pay-outs, which much be positive.

Perhaps there'll be 2 payment ladders... one for the pre-split, and one for the post-split stages? That'd avoid your fears over someone finishing high pre-split but getting a lower payout after finishing low-ish post-split.

[Monkey Tennis]

the majority of football fans dont go to games to watch the opposition IMO

Well you're wrong.

If Queens were the only team on the pitch, I'd give it a miss. I'm guessing that's fairly typical.

[EdTheDuck]

There's nothing in this re-structure that is going to improve our game, particularly at the top end where it's most desperately needed, and I still think sticking the burden of high-stakes games on the, by and large, middle range full-time clubs is cowardice in the extreme.

Unless our clubs accept that being support acts for the OF for a 9 month 38 game tedious slog is not a fan friendly proposition, particularly at £20+ a pop, then nothing is going to get better anytime soon and it could get a whole lot worse.

[itzdrk]

Well you're wrong.

If Queens were the only team on the pitch, I'd give it a miss. I'm guessing that's fairly typical.

well that's just a stupid stupid comment that has no relevance to what i said

[D.Armour Appreciation Society]

Regarding the financial distribution, no actual breakdowns or figures have appearred in the papers, but all the club officials quoted in the press (both SPL and SFL) have been saying that it smooths-out the financial pay-outs, which much be positive.

It's down to the Clubs to confirm the details to the supporters, it's also down to the Supporters Trusts, Organisations to make sure that the Football Clubs diseminate the information out to those who pay at the turnstyles.

From trawling the press and radio it Looks like 11-1 is being replaced by 90%, which is the same thing.

New Governance is paramount.

[craigkillie]

Hardly. Look at the table this season, Hearts would have been condemned to this "middle 8" despite only being 8 points off runners-up spot, so 14 meaningless games to finish the season, they wouldn't get a crowd over 10k.

Relegation battles do not increase crowds unless it's a final do-or-die game.

Their last 14 games wouldn't be meaningless, because they'd need to finish in the top 4 of the middle section to avoid getting relegated.

[TheLip69]

I did say more opportunity for promotion, tbf. But in all of Austria, Switzerland, and Georgia it always averaged more than 1-up-1-down... they averaged 1.6, 1.1 and 2 infact. I don't see it ending-up in less movement than now.

Regarding the financial distribution, no actual breakdowns or figures have appearred in the papers, but all the club officials quoted in the press (both SPL and SFL) have been saying that it smooths-out the financial pay-outs, which much be positive.

Perhaps there'll be 2 payment ladders... one for the pre-split, and one for the post-split stages? That'd avoid your fears over someone finishing high pre-split but getting a lower payout after finishing low-ish post-split.

Isn't that what the whole First Division is about, an opportunity for promotion. Now it's no longer that, it's an opportunity for an opportunity at promotion. With no automatic promotion how can this possibly be seen as better for the first division?

Perhaps there'll be two payment ladders, perhaps? In ther words, you dont know?

I dont have any fears about whats happening, jutst questions. I am stillwaiting on answers.

We dont know how the splits will work, pointswise anyway? We dont know how the funds will pay out?

There is a 50/50 chance of no promotion.

How on earth can this be acceptable to anyone without the full facts?

As it stands, from what is known, this is a parcel of scheidt.

[Burnie_man]

Their last 14 games wouldn't be meaningless, because they'd need to finish in the top 4 of the middle section to avoid getting relegated.

Woopee do! to use a stat I used in another post, Hibs visited Aberdeen at the end of September, attendance? just over 8,000. It was not a so called "meaningless" game. They played again last week, attendance 7,000. The game is dying.

So, what will this new crazy 8x8x8 do to address the dramatic decline in attendances? if Hibs visited Aberdeen in a "middle 8" fixture, do you think the attendance would improve?

[HibeeJibee]

Both those attendances were affected by KOs moved for live TV - Aberdeen's overall average this season is 10,500 (which is up 1,300).

Would they draw more v (say) Livingston or Raith than v Hibs? Doubtful. Would having fewer games increase their season's gross? No.

[Bazil85]

Looking for some views into ideas on league reconstruction in Scotland. To my mind the major problem in Scotland is that we have far too many professional clubs, this severely dilutes the financial pool and quality of football. We have 42 Senior clubs in a population of about 5 million. Assuming every person is a fan of football, that gives about 175,000 followers per club. Sounds great, apart from the fact that attendances outside of the old firm are tiny, clubs are failing financially left right and centre and we are being left behind most of Europe both on and off the field.

I appreciate this is very radical, but why don't we have 12 or so professional clubs in Scotland and have one division. These 12 clubs would be formed by smaller teams amalgamating, pulling resources and fan bases and actually creating a competitive league where more than one (previously 2) clubs actually have a hope of winning something. This would create a competitive league, with different winners, higher attendances and quite quickly get a better tv deal, attract better players to the league. Base upon attendances you could have

Celtic, Rangers, Glasgow FC (amalgamate Partick Thistle/St Mirren/queens park) play at nationalstadium. Hearts, Hibs ( though they may want to form Edinburgh FC)Lanarkshire (Motherwell Airdrie Hamilton Albion Rovers)Dundee Dundee Utd (may wish to amalgamate as local population is just 150k)Central Belt team (Livingston Falkirk Dunfermline)Ayrshire (Kilmarnock Ayr st Johnstone)Aberdeen / Grampian With Peterhead The Highlanders - Inverness ElginKings of the South - QofS Stranraer Berwick

The history of each team could be preserved with the lower leagues being made up of the amalgamated teams playing under 21 + 5 overage squad players as a separate club, essentially acting as feeders for the big clubs.

I appreciate this wouldn't be popular with fans initially, but Inverness Caledonian thistle came from a similar process and are thriving! The advantages are clear:

Concentrated cash amongst a smaller number of clubs, so able to compete more in EuropePotential large fan bases for the new clubsFans of clubs actually have a chance of winning something meaningful There would be a squad wage cap, but crucially players developed by each teams wages would not contribute to that cap!

I appreciate this sounds mental and would upset fans initially. Yes Dundee Utd did amazingly well in Europe in the 80s, but now - now the game in Scotland is dying, and we need to do something radical to improve the product. What chance do the likes of Dundee Aberdeen have now of ever reaching a european final? Why is playing in the champions league with 'success' being getting out of the group stage and collecting a big cheque (not winning it like has happened before) the best we can aim for as a nation?

Comments on the new super league appreciated. Why should we be looking to Atlantic leagues etc when we have the makings of a great domestic competitn right here?

Why don't we do this? Because it's the single most ridiculous suggestion we've had so far. Why would Paisley St Mirren become Glasgow FC and when do you go back into your clinic?

[EdTheDuck]

Woopee do! to use a stat I used in another post, Hibs visited Aberdeen at the end of September, attendance? just over 8,000. It was not a so called "meaningless" game. They played again last week, attendance 7,000. The game is dying.

So, what will this new crazy 8x8x8 do to address the dramatic decline in attendances? if Hibs visited Aberdeen in a "middle 8" fixture, do you think the attendance would improve?

If Hibs visited Aberdeen in a "middle 8" fixture where the outcome decided if one or other played in SPL 1 or SPL 2 do you think the attendance woould improve?

[Burnie_man]

Both those attendances were affected by KOs moved for live TV - Aberdeen's overall average this season is 10,500 (which is up 1,300).

Would they draw more v (say) Livingston or Raith than v Hibs? Doubtful. Would having fewer games increase their season's gross? No.

You are making the same mistake as out esteemed SPL Chairman, short termism.

Look at the bigger picture and the longer term. Playing teams 4 times is deeply unpopular, splits are deeply unpopular, this has been proven time and again via fan polls and via the turnstiles. So what is the plan? more of the same.

I would say Aberdeen playing Livingston at home once a season (or Hibs once a season) would get more than 7,000 through the gate, TV or not.

[Burnie_man]

If Hibs visited Aberdeen in a "middle 8" fixture where the outcome decided if one or other played in SPL 1 or SPL 2 do you think the attendance woould improve?

Presumably both would be 4th or 5th in this "middle 8" on the back of some desperate results [and no doubt some desperate attendances], fans would have voted with their feet, so the attendance at this one do-or-die fixture is largely irrelevant.

We dont base a league system round one possible big attendance for two poorly performing teams.

[EdTheDuck]

I would say Aberdeen playing Livingston at home once a season (or Hibs once a season) would get more than 7,000 through the gate, TV or not.

Based on what exactly?

[EdTheDuck]

Presumably both would be 4th or 5th in this "middle 8" on the back of some desperate results [and no doubt some desperate attendances], fans would have voted with their feet, so the attendance at this one do-or-die fixture is largely irrelevant.

We dont base a league system round one possible big attendance for two poorly performing teams.

No one is suggesting we do, but the fact is that the circumstances of the 7,000 & 8,000 attendances between these 2 clubs have their roots in Aberdeen being absolutely horrendous for 3 years and pretty manky for nearly 20 years, not in the X4 playing league.

Look back a few seasons when bpth were doing OK and you'll find attandances of 11,000, 14,000, 15,000 between them all while playing X4

And if the variation of opponent is the boost that our game needs why are Cup Games between SPL & Div 1 teams not filling our grounds? Attendances at these are usually pretty abysmal.

[Burnie_man]

Based on what exactly?

Based on me being a football fan.

[Burnie_man]

No one is suggesting we do, but the fact is that the circumstances of the 7,000 & 8,000 attendances between these 2 clubs have their roots in Aberdeen being absolutely horrendous for 3 years and pretty manky for nearly 20 years, not in the X4 playing league.

Look back a few seasons when bpth were doing OK and you'll find attandances of 11,000, 14,000, 15,000 between them all while playing X4

And if the variation of opponent is the boost that our game needs why are Cup Games between SPL & Div 1 teams not filling our grounds? Attendances at these are usually pretty abysmal.

Do you think, with the introduction of 8x8x8, and with Rangers coming back in a couple of seasons, Aberdeen will ever see 14,000 at a Hibs game again?

What is there to attract back the missing 6,000/7,000? you guys experienced an up-turn in ST sales on the back of the Rangers fiasco as fans were urged to back their team, looks like they quickly deserted again despite being currently only 5 points off 2nd place.

[HibeeJibee]

You are making the same mistake as out esteemed SPL Chairman, short termism.

Look at the bigger picture and the longer term. Playing teams 4 times is deeply unpopular, splits are deeply unpopular, this has been proven time and again via fan polls and via the turnstiles. So what is the plan? more of the same.

I would say Aberdeen playing Livingston at home once a season (or Hibs once a season) would get more than 7,000 through the gate, TV or not.

I don't see how it's short-termism at all, I would advocate 4x playing whatever the term we're talking about. And for all that 4x playing might be unpopular, experience here (and some comparisons abroad where countries have switched from 4x to 2x or vice versa or done so and gone back) suggests that 'being unpopular' is one thing, but attending or not attending is decidely another.

As I said, we've had the example of Hibs given here and there's no way 2x playing in a 16 or 18 can be better for crowds than some form with 4x playing. There's fewer games for a start - so you actually need to get the average up simply to tread water. And then there's only 1 derby, only 1 Celtic match, only 1 Aberdeen match, and so on. Then a substantial element of matches are against small clubs with smaller travelling supports and less attractiveness than existing SPL sides (e.g. Livingston, Raith, Morton). Then all placed in a big league - so there's rarely if ever a liklihood of Hibs being in a relegation fight, and there's no split. So if Hibs have a middling season there's nothing to play for, for ages, breeding meaningless games.

And I don't think Aberdeen-Livingston would've got more than Aberdeen-Hibs in similar circumstances (i.e. date/time, position of Aberdeen in table). I can't possibly see what one could substantiate that claim with. Plus Aberdeen-Livi has less appeal for TV than Aberdeen-Hibs.

In terms of going from 12 splitting 6-6 to 12-12 splitting 8-8-8... it makes sense for the likes of Hibs/Aberdeen as it means a top 8 not a top 6 so more chance of making it (with associated additional big games/derbies).

And if they don't, it's a 14-game 'shoot-out' for SPL survival, hopefully with associated 'crunch match' crowds.

It does mean a drop from 19 to 18 home games - but currently you're not guaranteed 19 so presumably clubs don't budget on that.