Scottish Football Reconstruction

[clyde4ever]

I am a bit disappointed after visiting various junior club forums that there appears to be zero interest to a football pyramid (and Lowland League) in Scotland. The main reasons appear to be financial (ticket cost, travel costs, facilities and admin) and that the football would not be any more attractive. I think all the above reasons are valid and have to be considered.

I can however not understand why East of Scotland clubs like Spartans and Gretna are interested when clubs with bigger fan bases in the Juniors are not. Can anyone tell me what is the difference between Auchenleck or Pollok and Spartans? How a club like Spartans overcome or want to overcome all of the above and Junior clubs not?

Is it about ambition?

Junior clubs wanting promotion to the senior league would have to stick to the same rules (e.g. health and safety) that currently apply to all senior teams, including 3rd division teams.

Many of them wouldn't be willing to do that.

The pyramid system is yet another SP(F)L decision that hasn't been thought through properly.

Also,it makes a mockery of the decision to let Junior teams into the Scottish Cup.

Only junior teams in the new Lowland League should be allowed in.

[TheLip69]

Why would Auchinleck give up visits to and from Kilbirnie, Irvine, Glenafton and the like? Isn't the proliferation of local derbies one of the reasons that they outperform a lot of the third division clubs, crowdwise?

What are the benefits to any Junior club in joining the Lowland league?

Why would they give up a perfectly decent league with enough big local games to keep their fans happy for a shot at joining a league where their matches would be held in far off spots like Brechin, Montrose, and Berwick? For clubs like Auchinleck, I dont see the Lowland league as being a step forward.

[Enigma]

If clubs don't want to progress maybe they should just give up. Clubs should want to play at the highest level possible.

[WILLIEA]

If clubs don't want to progress maybe they should just give up. Clubs should want to play at the highest level possible.

No greenies left but I agree 100%.

The league setup below the Highland and Lowland Leagues would surely be much the same as the junior setup just now. The Junior cup could still be a national competition for clubs below the top leagues. The various regional cups could also be kept giving clubs at a certain level knock out competition against their peers.

I really don't see that any junior clubs who were unable to progress would see any noticeable change in their circumstances but there must be a mechanism where any club, Ashfield, Threave, Linlithgow ( to choose a few random examples ) can progress up through the leagues if they merit it.

The juniors really are behaving like dinosaurs with this.

[Lou Brusch]

Any disagreement surrounding the twelve Lowland clubs selected?

I can think of at least one that will cause controversy as someone only became a senior club a few weeks ago

[Cowden Cowboy]

Any disagreement surrounding the twelve Lowland clubs selected?

I can think of at least one that will cause controversy as someone only became a senior club a few weeks ago

Brave of you to put your head above the parapet - just inviting the answer - Gretna!

[Lou Brusch]

Brave of you to put your head above the parapet - just inviting the answer - Gretna!

Couldn't have walked in to that more easily if I tried.

[bendan]

Great to see EK FC in the Lowland League. I think ultimately that is what will revolutionise Scottish football: new clubs (maybe via mergers) working their way up into the professional leagues. I don't think in the long term it matters much who joins from the juniors/EoS/SoS.

[SpoonTon]

The top regional teams should play against each other at the end of the season The winning teams in would be entitled to apply for entry to the SPFL Div 3 if they want to. The bottom Div 3 team should be punted to their nearest lower pyramid league whether they want to or not unless the Regional Trophy winner (or maybe other finalist, if the winner wants to stay regional?) does not want to be promoted.

That 'if they want to' is an important issue. It's one of the reasons why I felt that a bottom league of 18 was preferable to the 2 of 10. We are offering clubs who currently thrive on local rivalry a chance to progress, but not the most attractive chance ever. Being in the lowland league is still only half of the 5th tier of Scottish football, with the potential 'carrot' of double trips to places like Peterhead, Elgin and Montrose (Ironically, many of the current SFL2 and 3 clubs prefer playing between 2 levels of national leagues). Not only would a league of 18 give a better spread of teams, it would also only be one level off the 2nd tier of Scottish football. It certainly would also seem sensible to have 4 regional leagues under that national league of 18 (as is it much closer to what we have now). This would allow clubs to stay in the regional football that they thrive on, with the proper incentive of a place in the 3rd tier (rather than the 5th). We should be looking for clubs to be ambitious, but the prize on offer has to encourage ambition.

That being said, I think the creation of the intregated Highland and Lowland leagues is a huge step forward. Hopefully it's the small opening that will lead to better change rather than the token change in-itself.

[LeithKillie]

Of course it would but merging the juniors and non league seniors would have been too much work and might have cost money. So they didn't bother.

I can understand it might have involved a bit of work, but I do not understand how it would have cost money. Many of the East Juniors have better facilities and fan bases than some of the East Seniors. The whole separation thing is a ridiculous anachronism. The south of Scotland League is far inferior than the West Juniors in quality of football, facilities and crowds and is equally perverse that the former technically has higher status in Scottish football.

We need a proper pyramid that will let ambitious clubs climb (if they want to); let unambitious crappy protectionist senior teams sink to the level they deserve to be in; let unambitious nervous parochial regional (currently junior) teams stay in whatever regional league they want to as long as they are high enough in their respective leagues not to be relegated.

If I were an East Stirling fan I would find the prospect of travelling to interesting East of Scotland teams and a chance to regain some dignity by earning the right to get back into the fourth tier, far preferable to finishing bottom every season and getting beaten every week. It would be nice to win occasionally. Hibernians crowds went up when they were relegated to SFL1

No brainer really.

[LeithKillie]

That 'if they want to' is an important issue. It's one of the reasons why I felt that a bottom league of 18 was preferable to the 2 of 10. We are offering clubs who currently thrive on local rivalry a chance to progress, but not the most attractive chance ever. Being in the lowland league is still only half of the 5th tier of Scottish football, with the potential 'carrot' of double trips to places like Peterhead, Elgin and Montrose (Ironically, many of the current SFL2 and 3 clubs prefer playing between 2 levels of national leagues). Not only would a league of 18 give a better spread of teams, it would also only be one level off the 2nd tier of Scottish football. It certainly would also seem sensible to have 4 regional leagues under that national league of 18 (as is it much closer to what we have now). This would allow clubs to stay in the regional football that they thrive on, with the proper incentive of a place in the 3rd tier (rather than the 5th). We should be looking for clubs to be ambitious, but the prize on offer has to encourage ambition.

That being said, I think the creation of the intregated Highland and Lowland leagues is a huge step forward. Hopefully it's the small opening that will lead to better change rather than the token change in-itself.

I am assuming when you say 'carrot' you mean if you win the lowland league your reward would be entering a higher Scotland wide league with more travel and less derbies (sorry for being a bit thick).

I agree a bigger bottom Scotland wide league would be the best of both worlds, with a better chance of having some local derbies and only playing a team very far away once a season instead of twice. You might also have more far away teams in a bigger league, which would nullify this. Local derbies (against the same team) are better once or twice a season than four times, I think as they are more of an occasion. A bigger league more derby type opportunities with different ‘localish’ teams

A bigger Scotland wide league would allow you to play better more interesting teams and climb quicker if you are ambitious and good enough.

　

[kiddy]

The proposed play off are a joke, why not keep them like the other play offs. They want the winners of a 3rd and 4th place home and away play off to have a home and away against the team finishing second. Then after all that the winner will play the team finishing second bottom of the SPL over two games. So one team can end up playing six games to get promoted whilst the one finishing second bottom of the SPL can play only two games to stay up. Preposterous, the self centred SPL is still alive and kicking.

I'm looking forward to the possible 10 (yes, that's ten) games against opponents in the SPiFL Dead Pool 2

[RedEd]

The south of Scotland League is far inferior than the West Juniors in quality of football, facilities and crowds and is equally perverse that the former technically has higher status in Scottish football.

Not really sure that's the case in terms of facilities. The three SoS teams in the Lowland League all have seating, whereas relatively few of the West juniors do. Some of them have floodlights as well.

It's unfortunate that the better juniors haven't come forward to join the system yet, but that's their decision to make.I would have loved to have went to Lowland League matches involving Ayrshire sides. Maybe someday.

[Sergeant Wilson]

I can understand it might have involved a bit of work, but I do not understand how it would have cost money. Many of the East Juniors have better facilities and fan bases than some of the East Seniors. The whole separation thing is a ridiculous anachronism. The south of Scotland League is far inferior than the West Juniors in quality of football, facilities and crowds and is equally perverse that the former technically has higher status in Scottish football.

We need a proper pyramid that will let ambitious clubs climb (if they want to); let unambitious crappy protectionist senior teams sink to the level they deserve to be in; let unambitious nervous parochial regional (currently junior) teams stay in whatever regional league they want to as long as they are high enough in their respective leagues not to be relegated.

If I were an East Stirling fan I would find the prospect of travelling to interesting East of Scotland teams and a chance to regain some dignity by earning the right to get back into the fourth tier, far preferable to finishing bottom every season and getting beaten every week. It would be nice to win occasionally. Hibernians crowds went up when they were relegated to SFL1

No brainer really.

I was thinking that more clubs would have got involved if some centralised funding had been directed at it. Maybe a sponsor. It's been way undersold, particularly to juniors who would have been taking the biggest risk leaving fairly succesful leagues.

[LeithKillie]

Not really sure that's the case in terms of facilities. The three SoS teams in the Lowland League all have seating, whereas relatively few of the West juniors do. Some of them have floodlights as well.

It's unfortunate that the better juniors haven't come forward to join the system yet, but that's their decision to make.I would have loved to have went to Lowland League matches involving Ayrshire sides. Maybe someday.

Agreed

Living now in Edinburgh and observing how ambitious Spartans are and comparing this to the parochialness of the top Ayrshire Junior sides has been disappointing. I was hopeful of an opportunity to see a Killie v Meadow derby or Talbot at Somerset. These two Ayrshire Junior teams (and maybe others) have fantastic potential.

[LeithKillie]

I was thinking that more clubs would have got involved if some centralised funding had been directed at it. Maybe a sponsor. It's been way undersold, particularly to juniors who would have been taking the biggest risk leaving fairly succesful leagues.

Money and a sponsor would help.

It is the same risk, currently, for Spartans as it would be for Pollok or Talbot

[SpoonTon]

I am assuming when you say 'carrot' you mean if you win the lowland league your reward would be entering a higher Scotland wide league with more travel and less derbies (sorry for being a bit thick).

　

Indeed. If you're Auchinleck I doubt you'd be tempted to fight through a lowland league without many of you're rivals just to get to a league with 2 trips to Peterhead, Elgin, and Montrose (with the prize at the end of that still only being the 3rd tier of Scottish football). But you might be tempted if the prize for winning a 'West Central Premier Division' was a place in a league of 18 which will have a spread of long trips but also games against teams like Ayr and Airdrie for a chance to make it to Scotland's 2nd tier.

If we want every team involved in a pyramid then we have to make it a sensible system for all the teams involved. Something like this would be a good aim IMO:

Tier 1: Scottish Premier League (12 teams)

Tier 2: Scottish First Division (12 teams)

Tier 3: Scottish National League (18 teams)

Tier 4: North League/ East South Premier/ West Central Premier/ North East Premier (or similar regional leagues - 16 teams each)

Tier 5 and beyond: Regional leagues below each premier regional.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Money and a sponsor would help.

It is the same risk, currently, for Spartans as it would be for Pollok or Talbot

I don't think so. Spartans can be fairly sure where they are going is an improvement. The two you mention, Lithgae, Bo'ness etc have less certainty of that.

Incdentally, with the rebranding in the seniors, has the present 3rd division effectively become "the conference".

[HibeeJibee]

Not really sure that's the case in terms of facilities. The three SoS teams in the Lowland League all have seating, whereas relatively few of the West juniors do. Some of them have floodlights as well.

11 of the 12 Lowland League clubs have seated stands, and 8 of the 12 have floodlights (with another about to install them apparently).

LL has effectively 'concentrated' Senior non-league clubs with such facilities into 1 league.

Neither of those aspects are actually required for an Entry License - just cover for 100, and minimum lux levels if floodlights are present.

However, obviously those things would be useful for any club who wins promotion, as everyone in SFL has seats, and lights would be vital.

[Aconcagua]

What a gem! You're right! The impoverishment of SPL clubs is all the fault of teams like Clyde, Montrose and the evil lower league cadres. Take away clubs like that (even though most of them aren't actually a burden to anyone financially) and it'll be cream teas all the way.

Actually whoever suggested smaller clubs are responsible for decline is quite close to the truth ... but because Scottish football is largely un-competitive, not because they exist. Strathclyde has half the population, but now in the PRO section has only 15 clubs to 57 from the `sticks`. That can NEVER work economically or from a playing point of view. There needs to be much more balance towards Strathclyde ... and much better competition. Above all ... we need LEGISLATION to ensure that CLUBS are fit for purpose, because they aren`t recruiting enough people, nor producing enough quality talent.

I don`t think any country would talk about limiting the PRO competition (except USA) to create competition. Football is a very widespread game and needs every possible input .. as long as it is structured. Lots of countries do that very successfully. Why can`t we do it ... one reason only ... THE SFA.