Independence - how would you vote?

[Baxter Parp]

Ah ok. The SNP's biggest achievement: redefining the meaning of left wing to include giving money to rich people. Not even Thatcher had the balls to attempt that con trick

Hey, let's make pensions means tested, says the "socialist"!

[renton]

Ah ok. The SNP's biggest achievement: redefining the meaning of left wing to include giving money to rich people. Not even Thatcher had the balls to attempt that con trick

Various left wing thinkers have looked at the issue of mean testing certain benefits, there is an argument for both sides, but generally they'v eshied away from means testing and feel that universal benefits, where applied better advance the course of socialism, generally becuase it ties everyone together more so in a cohesive society than means testing does.

[roverthemoon]

At the same time increasing the inequality gap and driving down average wages you mean?

You said the unionist parties couldn't claim policies that benefited the majority of Scots. I provided a list of policies that benefited a lot of Scots. So your initial statement was bollocks

[Baxter Parp]

Various left wing thinkers have looked at the issue of mean testing certain benefits, there is an argument for both sides, but generally they'v eshied away from means testing and feel that universal benefits, where applied better advance the course of socialism, generally becuase it ties everyone together more so in a cohesive society than means testing does.

Furthermore, "rich people" also pay taxes and NI, to suggest that they should get no benefit from it is utterly ridiculous.

[Baxter Parp]

You said the unionist parties couldn't claim policies that benefited the majority of Scots. I provided a list of policies that benefited a lot of Scots. So your initial statement was bollocks

And I pointed out the policies that cancelled out those benefits.

Also, the smoking ban wasn't any kind of a socialist policy, but I let it slide.

[roverthemoon]

Various left wing thinkers have looked at the issue of mean testing certain benefits, there is an argument for both sides, but generally they'v eshied away from means testing and feel that universal benefits, where applied better advance the course of socialism, generally becuase it ties everyone together more so in a cohesive society than means testing does.

All well and good on paper but does nothing for me in reality I'm afraid. If you're trying to reduce inequality and help those most in need if I was in Government I'd focus on polices that helped redistribute wealth from those who can afford it to those who cannot. I wouldn't actively implement policies that handed rich people even more money than they have already and sit waiting. In the hope that this will somehow help improve social cohesion.

[Enigma]

As a Liberal Democrat I resent any suggestions that we are a left wing party. We are liberal centrists.

Not social democrats?

[roverthemoon]

And I pointed out the policies that cancelled out those benefits.

Also, the smoking ban wasn't any kind of a socialist policy, but I let it slide.

An inequality gap and wages being driven down aren't actually policies. And how did they cancel out a pensioner getting their free bus travel or TV license or people getting better maternity rights or better sexual equality or any of the rest. The benefits of those policies are all still with us.

Not that you want to admit of course that because it doesn't fit in with your big unionist bogeyman narrative.

[Baxter Parp]

An inequality gap and wages being driven down aren't actually policies. And how did they cancel out a pensioner getting their free bus travel or TV license or people getting better maternity rights or better sexual equality or any of the rest. The benefits of those policies are all still with us.

Not that you want to admit of course that because it doesn't fit in with your big unionist bogeyman narrative.

Howcum rich pensioners getting a free travel universal benefit is ok, but rich sick people getting one isn't? Should we check people's bank accounts when they call the police or make an appointment with their GP? Sorry mate, you're too rich to use A&E, off you pop.

This is simply a desperate stick to beat the SNP with when you can't think of anything else, frankly. Giving money to the rich, my arse.

[Mr.Bojangles]

All well and good on paper but does nothing for me in reality I'm afraid. If you're trying to reduce inequality and help those most in need if I was in Government I'd focus on polices that helped redistribute wealth from those who can afford it to those who cannot. I wouldn't actively implement policies that handed rich people even more money than they have already and sit waiting. In the hope that this will somehow help improve social cohesion.

The money saved will only come after making people jump through hoops; filling in forms for means testing. All those extra office staff need to be paid for, and the savings you are going to redistribute will just go to paying their salary.

The only reason to do this would be for political gain and would do little to actually help the vulnerable. It's sad, but there's no way around it.

If you want to talk about proper redistribution, that can only occur post-independence as our parliament is severely handicapped.

[renton]

All well and good on paper but does nothing for me in reality I'm afraid. If you're trying to reduce inequality and help those most in need if I was in Government I'd focus on polices that helped redistribute wealth from those who can afford it to those who cannot. I wouldn't actively implement policies that handed rich people even more money than they have already and sit waiting. In the hope that this will somehow help improve social cohesion.

That's fine if it does nothing for you, but universality is still a legitimate school of thought in left wing circles and therefore cannot be simply dismissed by yourself as not 'left wing'... it's more than just social cohesion in any case. Universality was first implemented by the Atlee government in the NHS. Were we to take your views to their logical conclusion you'd have a semi or wholly privatised health industry with a kernel of public health care as a safety net for those who could not afford anything else. In order to prevent that kind of two speed system developing, as it is now, down south, a universal system forces everyone to care about the upkeep of the nationalised system and that inclusivity keeps the NHS vital since the rich have to care about it as well as the poor, forcing successive governments to maintain a system that disproportionately helps those who could not afford any other health care.

[Ad Lib]

Not social democrats?

Not really, no. Scotland has two social democratic parties already.

[deadasdillinger]

Was inspired to write a new article, partly by last night's show and partly by watching an old debate from the 1997 devolution referendum. Amazing how many of the arguments against are just the exact same, all proven in the fullness of time to be bollocks, yet people are still falling for them today.

http://saoralba2014.blogspot.co.uk/

[Baxter Parp]

Not really, no. Scotland has two social democratic parties already.

Social liberal, apparently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats

[~~~]

Good article from an Englishman living in Scotland

http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/scottish-independence-vote/

[Swampy]

Allowing free prescriptions to be defined, without any qualification, as 'actively redistributing money to the wealthy' is one of the most egregious Unionist canards, and one that it's disappointing to see the SNP and its supporters allow to pass largely without comments.

Hardly any serious observer would date label NHS treatment as 'redistributing money to the wealthy' (again, without any qualifier), but because it's 1) Scottish and 2) innovative policy, the dominant concern is somehow to illegitimise it rather than acknowledge what it plainly is (universal) and then take a dispassionate look at its effects, costs and benefits.

Anyone doubting that this is a reverse-engineered way to give the Nats a kicking need only ask themselves if they thought prior to literally this second that they think NHS treatment is 'actively redistributing money to the wealthy' and anything other than a policy with its roots in socialism.

[Swampy]

The data isn't six months old though. Sovereign ratings can in theory be assessed on a daily basis although they are actually going to be geared to a countries economic announcements which are more monthly in nature.

You seem to be talking about ratings relating to companies rather than countries which will follow the filing of annual accounts and half year/quarterly interims.

Not sure what you mean by unsolicited in this context either.

1) The data used for an April 2013 reaffirmation is five or more months old, absent the existence of a customized DeLorean.

2) I seem to be talking about S&P's metholodogies and credibility.

3) Unsolicited in this context means that the company/sovereign entity in question is being rated by S&P unsolicited. When the entity contracts S&P they (generally) give them access to all kinds of internal documentation and other confidential information. When a rating is unsolicited, only S&P's proprietary data (ha!) and public domain data can be used as there is no commercial tie to the entity in question. In other words it's some analysts reading the Wall Street Journal and updating their rankings after the economic collapse begins. (This I can say with confidence as this is literally what happened.)

[doopherdaffer]

Allowing free prescriptions can only benefit the working or indeed unemployed class as it has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the more wealthier the more healthier. So us poor beings actually benefit from free prescriptions. You didn't think that argument through very well....... Did you!

[vikingTON]

such a long post to say "I'm great, you fail". But you really showed them didn't you. Nobody puts baby in the corner

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

If you're feeling intimidated by much smarter people with an arsenal of facts at their disposal, I'd suggest leaving this thread and joining BitterTogether's campaign team.

You won't be missed.

[DAFC]

Watched the so called debate last night on stv. Sturgeon just talks over people.

Annoying as feck. Had to switch off.