Independence - how would you vote?

[WFAANW]

Where are you getting these pics, some are brilliant.

[speckled tangerine]

I just watched the Clydebank TUC meeting from the other week on YouTube (can't link. On the kindle, but easy to find). Shame the film quality is poor but hey ho.

Anas Sarwar had his balls served up to him with salt and vinegar by, what you would have expected to be, a fairly friendly lefty crowd. They weren't conned with references to Maxton and Mick Magahey. He was panned.

When on his closing summary and visibly riled he came out with:

"You can listen....or you can shout"

I nearly pished myself! That from the man who never shuts up, will "answer that" and honest, never obsfuscates on telly debates. My irony meter exploded.

[Jamaldo]

I just watched the Clydebank TUC meeting from the other week on YouTube (can't link. On the kindle, but easy to find). Shame the film quality is poor but hey ho.

Anas Sarwar had his balls served up to him with salt and vinegar by, what you would have expected to be, a fairly friendly lefty crowd. They weren't conned with references to Maxton and Mick Magahey. He was panned.

When on his closing summary and visibly riled he came out with:

"You can listen....or you can shout"

I nearly pished myself! That from the man who never shuts up, will "answer that" and honest, never obsfuscates on telly debates. My irony meter exploded.

The guy is an absolute tool. Until the farcical debate with Nicola Sturgeon I genuinely had no opinion on the guy and didn't know much about him. However, he has shown himself to be a chancer of the highest order these last few weeks. He also has a really grating voice which I cannot abide.

[ArmadaleKillie]

Was out tonight with an fifer who has lived in England for thirty years since joining the RAF. He was pro union but it was really fun to have him arguing on my side against some of the crap seen in the media etc. Never had an ally as good when chatting with people in England. There really are pro union peopke out there eho do fight the bullshit.

[Shuggie_Murray7]

Lets turn the question around. What will we do when the oil runs out if we are still in the union? Beg?

This has always been a question I use when I talk with a unionist and they mention oil.

"Ah but it's going to run out"

Well in that case it's going to run out if we remain in the union also.

UK oil = Infinite

Scottish oil = Finite

[Todders]

The fact that it's running out makes it even more vital that we use it to build a legacy rather than pishing it up against a wall the way it has been for the last 40 years.

Which government do you trust most to do that?

[kiddy]

I see Stirling have cancelled the 'Gathering of the Clans' celebration as it "can't cope". Pretty disappointing, from the much proclaimed "City".Maybe proves it's nothing of the kind after all.

I take it they'll be cancelling 'Armed Forces Day' too?

Their Councils decision only suggests that it's closed for business.

[barrysnotter]

“If the Scottish Government had wished to invest in an oil fund, without having to increase its borrowing, there would have had to have been a corresponding increase in tax receipts or reduced public spending."

Nothing to see here though.

[I'm Brian]

And now we have a round of Energy price rises by the cartel.

The joys of living in the one of the world most energy sufficient countries in the world.

[~~~]

What is it about unionists that hate anything that reminds them of being Scottish?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/why-the-saltire-makes-me-cringe.22381101

Why the Saltire makes me cringe

[barrysnotter]

And now we have a round of Energy price rises by the cartel.

The joys of living in the one of the world most energy sufficient countries in the world.

The independent utopia that will seek to rely on a single UK energy market and particularly on the rUK to subsidise green energy projects will be completely different won't it?

[xbl]

I see Stirling have cancelled the 'Gathering of the Clans' celebration as it "can't cope". Pretty disappointing, from the much proclaimed "City".Maybe proves it's nothing of the kind after all.I take it they'll be cancelling 'Armed Forces Day' too?Their Councils decision only suggests that it's closed for business.

Our council are a disgrace.

[kiddy]

The independent utopia that will seek to rely on a single UK energy market and particularly on the rUK to subsidise green energy projects will be completely different won't it?

As an Independent Nation, we would be able to finance & set an Energy policy, defined to suit our own needs.

Green Energy subsidies are finite & will come to an end, whether Independent or not.

[barrysnotter]

As an Independent Nation, we would be able to finance & set an Energy policy, defined to suit our own needs.

Green Energy subsidies are finite & will come to an end, whether Independent or not.

You should maybe read up on the SNP's half arsed position on energy policy in an independent Scotland, it's anything but independent.

[renton]

Nothing to see here though.

I don't think anyone is denying that things would change, but there are plenty of populist measures on both sides of that equation that would allow the Scottish gvoernment to increas ethe money in it's coffers, without unduly spooking the populace.

[xbl]

The independent utopia that will seek to rely on a single UK energy market and particularly on the rUK to subsidise green energy projects will be completely different won't it?

Ah yes, the authentic view of Johann Lamont.

[barrysnotter]

I don't think anyone is denying that things would change, but there are plenty of populist measures on both sides of that equation that would allow the Scottish gvoernment to increas ethe money in it's coffers, without unduly spooking the populace.

Which is a round-about way of saying increase tax or reduce spending. The SNP certainly aren't admitting that freely.

[renton]

Which is a round-about way of saying increase tax or reduce spending. The SNP certainly aren't admitting that freely.

Yet all UK Labour will tell people about 2015 is that there will be tough choices They won't tell us what that means in terms of tax rises or spending cuts. Big surprise.

As it is, there is no doubt there will be a change in public spending priorities in an independent Scotland, quite apart from the change in allocation of oil money coming straight to Edinburgh without being filtered via London, there is our contributions to UK wide projects that we will no longer be spending money on: HS2 for example, Trident for another, spending 2.5 billion on defence instead of 3.4 billion a year, the fact that we raise more tax up here than is spent in Scotland.

Also consider that ultimately, spending priorities will be set by the first independent Scottish government, which might not be the SNP. They can set out what they think independence will look like in their white paper (but that is not a manifesto fro gvoernment and ultimately will be a more general document). A Scottish Labour government in 2016, for example, might decide it doesn't wnat to set up a sovereign fund in any case.

[I'm Brian]

The independent utopia that will seek to rely on a single UK energy market and particularly on the rUK to subsidise green energy projects will be completely different won't it?

Well as we produce a surplus

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/2818/4

and quite a large surplus at that, then it surely it would make sense.

In fact

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13253876

we produce so much that they have in the past told us to switch of the generators. Make up your own theory as to why they paid them to do it though.

Now you wouldn't want your mates down south to have to turn the lights out because they don't have enough energy to keep them running. I am sure such a wealthy country as the rUK would be would be able to afford the excess energy we produce.

Will it stop prices going up? Probably not, but in an independent Scotland, people will be more able to afford them. But then again supply and demand.

Personally I would like to see a nationalised energy sector, but lets face it, it isn't going to happen.

[I'm Brian]

Business for Scotland

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/12-defence-facts-that-the-no-campaign-dont-want-you-to-know/

Yesterday Phillip Hammond, Westminster’s defence minister, made a rare visit to Scotland to play up fears concerning defence in an independent Scotland. He claimed independence threatens jobs in the military, that an independent Scotland would struggle to defend itself and that Scotland would lose military contracts.

These claims quickly unravelled as his assertions were exposed as a poor substitute for facts. Many of the numbers he quoted in interviews were actually wrong! In response, Business for Scotland can provide facts and figures on defence in Scotland. This evidence demonstrates that an independent Scotland will be secure, economically better off and can play a constructive role in the world – but one more focused on protecting peace rather than Westminster’s focus on projecting power, which is the strategic flaw at the heart of Philip Hammond’s Defence strategy .

Fact 1: Scotland is poorly defended by the UK

Due to Westminster policy, there are very few defence assets left in Scotland. Numbers of troops have been cut to an all time low. Airbases have been closed. There are only 5 MoD helicopters in the whole of Scotland and only 1 conventional naval vessel on the East coast.

Fact 2: The UK has a defence underspend in Scotland

From 2002-2008 there was a £5.622 billion under spend on defence forces in Scotland. Scottish taxpayers put in much more than is spent in Scotland.

Fact 3: Westminster has cut defence jobs

Between 2000 and 2010 Ministry of Defence personnel in Scotland were cut by 27.9%. This is much higher than the equivalent UK cut of 11.6%.

Fact 4: Scotland lacks naval and Arctic capacity

The navy does not have one major surface vessel based in Scottish waters. This limits security operations in the North Sea. The UK has also been left behind in activities in the Arctic Region, which has become of increasing significance to China, Russia and the US, especially in the context of the Arctic ice retreating because of climate change. That retreat opens up shipping lanes which make the region of more strategic importance, especially to an independent Scotland.

Fact 5: An independent Scotland would save money on defence

The 2011-12 Scotland contribution to UK defence spending was £3.4 billion. The SNP propose spending £2.5 billion on defence. Military expert Stuart Crawford proposed a spending range of £1.5-1.8 billion. In these circumstances, Scotland would save towards £1 billion each year on defence. This level of expenditure is of relative comparison with the likes of the Scandinavian countries, all of whom live up to their international responsibilities.

Fact 6: Scotland would get a better defence force

Crawford’s defence model includes a Scottish navy of between 20 and 25 vessels, the building of which Scottish shipyards could compete for in the same way they do for UK contracts. (some of which go overseas) Currently there are 11 vessels in Scotland. Such a model can also include aircraft and helicopters for use in North Sea operations and the Arctic. Angus Robertson’s proposal include an increase in the military footprint for the army in Scotland from around 11,000 troops to 15,000. Business for Scotland set this out in further detail ‘here’.

Fact 7: Defence spending in medium sized countries

Countries of a similar size to Scotland have effective military units which are sustained at far lower cost than the Westminster model. As of 2010, Denmark spent 1.4% of GDP on defence. Norway spent 1.5% and Finland spent 1.6%.

Fact 8: Medium countries contribute to peace

Countries of a similar size to Scotland have effective military units which contribute to global peacekeeping and security. Denmark combats piracy in the Indian ocean and provides security operations in the Arctic. Ireland had contributed to numerous peacekeeping operation through the United Nations, including in Syria last month. Norway currently has forces contributing to the peacekeeping force in Sudan. It was also pivotal to establishing peace in the Balkans during the late 1990s.

Fact 9: Scrapping Trident can increase jobs

The independent Scottish Trade Union Council report ‘Cancelling Trident: The Economic and Employment Consequences for Scotland‘ found that more jobs can be generated from scrapping trident than would be generated by renewing weapons of mass destruction.

Fact 10: Scotland gets a bad deal on defence contracts

Between 2007-08 and 2011-12 Scotland received £1.9 billion less than its population share of defence contracts.

Fact 11: Scotland’s defence assets are worth £7.8 billion

An independent Scotland will be entitled to a population share of UK defence assets. 8.4% of the UK’s total defence assets equals £7.8 billion as of 2007.

Fact 12: Scotland will save £200 million a year by scrapping Trident

The annual cost of operating Trident is between 5-6% of total UK defence costs, according to UK Ministers. This is around £2.5 billion a year. Scotland’s contribution to this is therefore around £200 million a year. Scrapping Trident from the Clyde will make billions of pounds worth of financial savings for people in Scotland.