Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Have you ever been to the fucking countryside? And you're right, maybe its a bit harsh to call it Unionist talk, my bad. Its Tory talk. Yes. Frequently. I can think of nothing LESS Tory talk than explicitly admitting that the countryside is the domain of piss-taking landed interests of the upper-class and landed middle class and multi-generational farmers, and saying that they shouldn't be given special privileges like subsidised mail delivery. Ideally, yes. I just shudder to think how "we" would decide to measure it. We can start by just writing off Arbroath and Stirling for the sake of speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 You are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bojangles Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Ad Lib. You need to write less and read more. Ever lived outside the city? The countryside is full of employed, but socially excluded people with poor health and very little money. Not only are you neoliberal in your defence of privatization at the expense of societies most vulnerable, you've just described your ideal policies regarding these matters in the most centralist manner I can think of. Are you sure you're a Lib Dem? I mean, the things you're saying are just about as far right as you can get. You should seriously consider switching your allegiances. I know the Tories aren't exactly popular around here but...well...neither are the Lib Dems. In any case, even if I accept your absurd contention that there's no blue collar work in the highlands, you know that these rich folk are still going to retire when they hit 45 and they're not going to be bothered one iota about the price of a stamp. The people who freeze to death every winter (I recently read a report that said many elderly were forced to use their winter fuel allowance on food) as they live their 'cushy' lifestyle in the city will still not be able to work a computer, nor will they be able to afford to buy one to make up for the increase in postage prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Ad Lib. You need to write less and read more. Ever lived outside the city? The countryside is full of employed, but socially excluded people with poor health and very little money. Not only are you neoliberal in your defence of privatization at the expense of societies most vulnerable, you've just described your ideal policies regarding these matters in the most centralist manner I can think of. Are you sure you're a Lib Dem? I mean, the things you're saying are just about as far right as you can get. You should seriously consider switching your allegiances. I know the Tories aren't exactly popular around here but...well...neither are the Lib Dems. He was a tory last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Day Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 He is quite clearly wrong then. It wouldn't be a disaster. At the very, very, very, very worst, it would be no better than what we have now. Plus, 16/17 year olds have been consistently shown to be fairly Unionist inclined (albeit fairly undecided), so I don't see a problem here. I honestly can't think of a single reason to stay in the UK apart from Fear. When even the Unionists say that of course Scotland could make it on its own, then surely you have concede that there is no financial reason why not? I think everyone who lives in Scotland should have a say on the future of Scotland, so I see no reason why you shouldn't vote if you live here. Of course, if you have problems yourself with that, then its your choice over whether to vote or not! 1. How can you say that for certain? 2. Lost all credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Ad Lib. You need to write less and read more. Ever lived outside the city? The countryside is full of employed, but socially excluded people with poor health and very little money. Not only are you neoliberal in your defence of privatization at the expense of societies most vulnerable, you've just described your ideal policies regarding these matters in the most centralist manner I can think of. Are you sure you're a Lib Dem? I mean, the things you're saying are just about as far right as you can get. You should seriously consider switching your allegiances. I know the Tories aren't exactly popular around here but...well...neither are the Lib Dems. In any case, even if I accept your absurd contention that there's no blue collar work in the highlands, you know that these rich folk are still going to retire when they hit 45 and they're not going to be bothered one iota about the price of a stamp. The people who freeze to death every winter (I recently read a report that said many elderly were forced to use their winter fuel allowance on food) as they live their 'cushy' lifestyle in the city will still not be able to work a computer, nor will they be able to afford to buy one to make up for the increase in postage prices. Yes, I have ever lived outside the city. Several times. I stand by my characterisation. The Royal Mail is centralised. They insist that I, the consumer, pay the same amount of money to send a letter from a postbox in Hillhead to be delivered to Glasgow City Chambers as someone on Skye does to send the same letter to Peebles. This is demonstrably unfair. In the latter case they are using up far more of our country's finite resources. I am suggesting the complete opposite of centralisation. I am saying that communities should take responsibility for their own provision of services instead of having a nationalised service that penalises those living in civilisation for the benefit of those living in teuchterland. If the people of teuchterland want to be backwards, that is their prerogative, but they shouldn't be allowed to insist that communities in the central belt sacrifice their economic, social and technological advantages for their benefit. You are the centralist here. I've not at any point said there was no blue collar workers in the Highlands. Stop lying. People who freeze to death in the winter need the resources that are wasted on universal services like the Winter Fuel Allowance to high rate tax payers, for instance. They don't need cheaper stamps. If they're using snail mail to any significant extent whatsoever, they would be better off buying a netbook and doing everything online. You can get one for peanuts these days. We even ship them out to Africa to help economic development. Far better investment and better at dragging them out of the stone age and into civilisation than subsidising their Points of View letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 He was a tory last year Untrue. ETA: I have only once voted Tory. That was in the 2009 European Parliament elections. That vote will not under any circumstances be repeated because my views on the EU have shifted significantly since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfect Circle Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have no time for country folk who whinge about how terribly expensive their lives are. They chose to live there. Or perhaps they could afford to buy/Rent in the inflated markets of Edinburgh/Aberdeen. Job opportunities/ location/ transport links/ schooling / quality of life /family ties dictate where people live. It's not a case of arriving with a large set of bricks and setting up base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Another embarrassing performance from Ad Lib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Or perhaps they could afford to buy/Rent in the inflated markets of Edinburgh/Aberdeen. Job opportunities/ location/ transport links/ schooling / quality of life /family ties dictate where people live. It's not a case of arriving with a large set of bricks and setting up base. My default response to this is there is always the choice to live in Kirkcaldy. Lovely wee town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 1. How can you say that for certain? 2. Lost all credibility. There is a level of uncertainty inherent in both sides of the argument, for example, can you argue with cast iron certainty that in the UK things will not get a lot worse in the next ten years, no exit from Europe, no increasingly authoritarian and illiberal policies, no more flat lining economy? When placed alongside the already material lack of democracy that Scotland enjoys: Periodic bouts of government that we never voted for. Taken for Granted by Labour, ignored at best and abused at worst by the Tories, then those uncertainties do start to harden. Against this, Scotland is the best performing 'region' outside of London economically, we do have a strong base in several industries including oil and gas, renewables, life sciences information services and semiconductor design. We are by no means simple dependent upon money being sent up by the gracious English tax payer, we pay our own way already - so what would change come independence? XBL is broadly correct in that there are few tangible reasons for staying, anyone with half a brain can see that Westminster is irreparably broken, that corporatism is creeping into public life in such a way as to make pure democracy for the masses nothing more than a bad joke. We have a chance in 2014 to remake a new Scottish public life, a democracy accountable to the people and serving their best needs, a chance to get away from the moribund practices of centralizing all economic activity in London, that is starving the rest of the UK. We should take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Not going to happen. Ever. Not possible to happen. For a start, how would you even measure "intelligence"? 16 is a perfectly reasonable cut off though. Intelligence is hard to measure, but I'd insist on passing a basic literacy test, a basic numeracy test, and being able accurately to name and explain at least 4 policies of at least 3 parties standing in your constituency. Impractical, I agree, but on the principle, in my view sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 My default response to this is there is always the choice to live in Kirkcaldy. Lovely wee town. ehhhh.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 ehhhh.......... Kirkcaldy is a wonderful place and I won't have anyone tell me otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sons superhero Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Intelligence is hard to measure, but I'd insist on passing a basic literacy test, a basic numeracy test, and being able accurately to name and explain at least 4 policies of at least 3 parties standing in your constituency. Impractical, I agree, but on the principle, in my view sound. How democratic of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 How democratic of you.I'm not a democrat. I'm a liberal who reluctantly tolerates democracy in the absence of a better alternative process to make decisions that don't engage fundamental rights.ETA: by ideology I'd consider myself more of a proponent of liberal juristocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Kirkcaldy is a wonderful place and I won't have anyone tell me otherwise. You and I must have very different experiences of the place. By lovely wee town I assume you mean: run down, post industrial shithole slowly withering on the vine.* *although perversely I'll not have anyone else say anything bad about it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sons superhero Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I'm not a democrat. I'm a liberal who reluctantly tolerates democracy in the absence of a better alternative process to make decisions that don't engage fundamental rights. No you are an elitist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 You and I must have very different experiences of the place. By lovely wee town I assume you mean: run down, post industrial shithole slowly withering on the vine.* *although perversely I'll not have anyone else say anything bad about it....... Granted it has its bad spots (what towns don't?) but Kirkcaldy is a lovely wee town. Very homely, collegiate, not a total dive (Starks Park notwithstanding ). I had a lovely time living in Kirkcaldy as a child. Barely 10 minutes from the Beveridge Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bojangles Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Yes, I have ever lived outside the city. Several times. I stand by my characterisation. The Royal Mail is centralised. They insist that I, the consumer, pay the same amount of money to send a letter from a postbox in Hillhead to be delivered to Glasgow City Chambers as someone on Skye does to send the same letter to Peebles. This is demonstrably unfair. In the latter case they are using up far more of our country's finite resources. I am suggesting the complete opposite of centralisation. I am saying that communities should take responsibility for their own provision of services instead of having a nationalised service that penalises those living in civilisation for the benefit of those living in teuchterland. If the people of teuchterland want to be backwards, that is their prerogative, but they shouldn't be allowed to insist that communities in the central belt sacrifice their economic, social and technological advantages for their benefit. You are the centralist here. I've not at any point said there was no blue collar workers in the Highlands. Stop lying. People who freeze to death in the winter need the resources that are wasted on universal services like the Winter Fuel Allowance to high rate tax payers, for instance. They don't need cheaper stamps. If they're using snail mail to any significant extent whatsoever, they would be better off buying a netbook and doing everything online. You can get one for peanuts these days. We even ship them out to Africa to help economic development. Far better investment and better at dragging them out of the stone age and into civilisation than subsidising their Points of View letters. You don't understand what centralisation means. It is the encouragement of the economic and social development of the nation to be focused on certain areas of society or in a geographic location. Your ideas will harm those in the countryside to the benefit of those in the city. It will also harm the elderly disproportionately. There is also the argument that if you are going to say that those living in cities should have postage cheaper than those in the countryside, why should those in the city have to subsidise food, road maintenance etc for those in the country. This will have the effect of people moving to the city to escape the rocketing prices of goods and the deteriorating infrastructure. What you are arguing is the antithesis of what I thought the Lib Dems stood for. Oh, and you only implied that people in the countryside shouldn't live there unless they're rich. Which would ignore the fact that people are needed to service these rich folk (since that's apparently the only industry in the countryside) and they're not going to be paid for more than minimum wage. Which won't rise to meet the cost of all these extra penalties they're going to accrue for not cramming the city further meaning probable urban sprawl coming back into fashion (which is a topic I'm not sure I want to get into, but this goes against everything in urban planning that I've seen published in the last 20 years or so), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.