H_B Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 "Relinquish total control of" powers would possibly have been a less charged way of saying it. Or "merge these powers into the larger British identity" or even "pool these powers with other nations" might be a more 'Better Together' friendly way of saying it. Ultimately I don't think there is a neutral way of using that question. Either it's the surrender of a sizeable chunk of Scottish sovereignty to a larger entity in which Scots will never have an equal voice or it's the pooling of resources into a mutually advantageous social and political union. They did say they'd be putting in a couple of BT friendly questions so will be interesting to see what that churns up. My issue with that though is that it's not comparing like for like. Because it's assuming that in the "if Scotland was an Indy country..." scenario our current living experience is completely the same as it is now, which is nonsensical. If the status quo was independence, with exactly the same parameters as currently, I wouldn't vote to join a Union, with completely unknown consequences, - why would I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I think that's just a bizarre question full stop. It's WoS though - it's not a serious survey as it's not a serious site. I don't think it's that bizzare, it's an attempt to gauge how seriously voters take BT rhetoric regarding the outcome of a No vote. And, it clearly shows scepticism with the idea of further devolution. I don't think it's an unfair question, and really, cynicism is inbedded into most western voters when it comes to manifesto promises. So it doesn't 'feel' wrong as a data point. I'd fully expect (wouldn't you) some suspicion over a vague promise to make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 It comes back to Allan Massie's point. People are comfortable with the current position. They aren't attached to the Union or Independence - they don't much care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 What I find intiguing is that Wings commissioned this poll entirely from donations from the public. Gone now are the days we have to rely on Unionist newspapers to release polls with their anti-independence slant on things. Bloggers like Wings and Newsnet Scotland are becoming a powerful voice in the referendum campaign given their financial backing. To a certain extent, power is being taken away from the Unionist media. And may I say, at long last! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie guevara Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Oh joy. Someone's commissioned a poll. 8 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 It comes back to Allan Massie's point. People are comfortable with the current position. They aren't attached to the Union or Independence - they don't much care. That will be Oxbridge educated Allan Massie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie guevara Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 My only contribution. Wings over Scotland is not serious much of the time, which is why there's a question about seamonsters or space monsters somewhere in there (we await the reveal). The point of the survey was to hold a mirror up to a BT survey which included some pretty contrived questions but was widely reported in the press and media, not to devise the most cast iron irrefutable set of opinion poll questions known to man. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 It comes back to Allan Massie's point. People are comfortable with the current position. They aren't attached to the Union or Independence - they don't much care. I don't think people are THAT comfortable with the current position, Every poll prior to the Edinburgh agreement that had the third question reckoned there was a plurality of voters in favour of more devolution, even Curtices' poorly worked SSA survey, once you dug below that headline figure (and allowing for the poor methodology) reckoned there was a plurality again for more powers, and if folk aren't really attached to the Union, and want more powers doesn't that undermine your previous point about there being too many confirmed nos? Allan Massie's salute to disengaged ennui aside, I agree that there is always a certain amount of inertia that needs to be overcome, but even if you allow for some amatuerism in how WoS asked the questions, they are simply another data point in a long run that suggests Scots want more decisions made at Holyood - or at least more locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 That will be Oxbridge educated Allan Massie? What does his education have to do with anything? I've met Allan Massie - he's a very bright guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 What does his education have to do with anything? I've met Allan Massie - he's a very bright guy. His Wiki page states he was educated at Cambridge and "He is well known for advocating a Tory viewpoint" I think we now know his political leanings and which side of the fence he's on in regards to independence eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Question 3 is particularly pisspoor. How would you have phrased it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 The point is, as with the Scottish Parliament itself, it's the Labour party who will deliver extra powers, as part of a manifesto commitment. If you want extra powers, contact your local Labour politicians. Largely because the SNP have made a total c**t of this referendum, which should have been on Devo Max, not Independence. But as we have already discussed, the unionist parties are dead set against a "devo-max" question. How could the SNP have delivered such a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 My issue with that though is that it's not comparing like for like. Because it's assuming that in the "if Scotland was an Indy country..." scenario our current living experience is completely the same as it is now, which is nonsensical. If the status quo was independence, with exactly the same parameters as currently, I wouldn't vote to join a Union, with completely unknown consequences, - why would I? Because the union is good for the country according to you and every unionist party, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 But as we have already discussed, the unionist parties are dead set against a "devo-max" question. How could the SNP have delivered such a thing? They could easily have delivered a devo max referendum - this has already been covered in some depth. Their mistake was in stupidly embarking on an independence referendum, where their arses are being handed to them on a plater, garnished with a side salad and a bearnaise sauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 How would you have phrased it? I wouldn't have asked it. It's a stupid question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 They could easily have delivered a devo max referendum - this has already been covered in some depth. No it hasn't. Putting forward your own opinion and ignoring everybody else isn't "covering" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I wouldn't have asked it. It's a stupid question. What's stupid about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Wow. Even before looking at the data, it appears that hb has gone into full tantrum mode. Must be bad news for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Well, it doesn't say whether they have done their usual filtering via Holyrood voting certainty. It's still quite an interesting data set and is actually a fairly similar trend to Curtice's Social Attitudes Survey with it's famous 23% headline figure. I was taking the piss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 What does his education have to do with anything? I've met Allan Massie - he's a very tory guy. FTFY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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