Orange Walk / Scottish Cricket thread

[LongTimeLurker]

When the SNP hold a parade in Stirling over Bannockburn over some old battle from centuries ago of questionable relevance to the present day is it also absolutely driven by hatred and intolerance? Grew up hearing both Ulster unionist and Scottish nationalist narratives on history and the difference on why one is the end of civilisation as we have known it while the other is perfectly socially acceptable where the chattering classes in Scotland are concerned has never been that obvious to me, given the similarity in having an underlying them vs us mentality underpinning it all was always obvious.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Indeed. These marches are absolutely driven by hatred and intolerance.

The "Apprentice Boys of Derry" marching through Stirling, being a prime example.

Was thinking more of your comment describing 3,000 people you have never met as "scum".

[AberdeenBud]

Was thinking more of your comment describing 3,000 people you have never met as "scum".

Not sure if serious.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Am questioning HB's veneer of respectability when someone questions questionable employment practice in Catholic schools when, in reality, he twists it round to an argument about Protestant schools and makes snide remarks about those criticising the said dodgy employment practice, making snide comments describing them as "staunch" or Loyal", and then lambasts 3,000 people he has never met as scum.

He may not like them, and is more than entitled to that opinion, but it is hardly the terminology of a measured and reasoned man.

[ballymoneyyin]

There seems to be a barely concealed attempt by some posters on here to claim that the Orange Order is simply a civic/religious body representing the Protestant faith, which, unfortunately, happens to attract unconnected troublemakers to their parades. This claim is not in the least convincing. The roots of the OO lie in the mid-1790s, when it came into existence in the Armagh area, with widespread gentry assistance, in order to intimidate and suppress both Catholic Defenderism and Protestant republicanism. With official complicity and support, they embarked upon a vicious campaign of intimidation against isolated Catholic homesteads, as well as against Protestant supporters of the United movement. The OO has nothing whatsoever to do with a celebration of Protestant faith, and, considering it was established more than a century following the 'Glorious Revolution' (sic), even less to do with celebrating the emergence of a constitutional monarchy. I also find their current position with regards to opposing Scottish independence without any historical justification whatsoever, as independence, as it is being offered, does not, unfortunately, involve moving towards a republican form of government. They are what they have always been, a reactionary reserve force, which will be used by their social superiors in order to maintain a threatened status quo through a clear policy of divide and rule. Those Rangers supporters on here defending the OO, and using their Protestant faith in order to defend the Union have no justification whatsoever for doing so. I hope and trust that all so-called Orange men and 'good Rangers men' will take note and that you will now refrain from any future attempts to equate Protestantism with lickspittle loyalism of the Orange Order variety.

I thought this was an informative, sensible read until you mentioned Rangers.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

From wiki.........

Formation and early years[edit]

Since the 1690s state-sponsored and plebeian commemorations had been held throughout Ireland celebrating key dates in the Williamite War such as the Battle of the Boyne, Siege of Derry and the Siege of Cork.^[12]These followed a tradition started in Elizabethan England of celebrating key events in the Protestant calendar.^[12] By the 1740s there were organisations holding parades in Dublin such as the Boyne Club and the Protestant Society, both seen as forerunners to the Orange Order.^[12]

Throughout the 1780s sectarian tension had been building until boiling point in County Armagh.^[13] Here the number of Protestants and Catholics in what was then Ireland's most populous county were of roughly equal number and competition between them to rent patches of land near markets was fierce.^[13] Dr. William Richardson stated in a detailed analysis of the situation in 1797:

"much offence had lately been taken because the Catholics in the general increase in wealth had raised the price of land by bidding high when it became vacant. This was the real cause of our ill-humour: [not] the relaxation of the popery laws but the pretence."

[

13

]

By 1786, drunken brawls in the Markethill area of County Armagh between groups known as the Bawn Fleet, Bunkerhill Defenders, and the Nappach Fleet had become openly sectarian,^[13] despite originating in a quarrel between two Presbyterians.^[14] They then reorganised as the Protestant Peep o' Day Boys and the Catholic Defenders.^[13] The next decade in County Armagh was marked by a raging sectarian conflict between both groups.^[13]

Lord Gosford observed of the Peep o' Day Boys that they were a "low set of fellows who with guns and bayonets, and other weapons break open the houses of the Roman Catholicks, and as I am informed treat many of them with cruelty".^[13] Some Protestant gentry gave weapons to Catholics so that they could defend themselves.^[13] Soon, however, guns were also being given out to the "Protestant Boys" to defend them from attacks by Catholics.^[13]

The sectarian violence soon spread to south Armagh where Catholics were a majority and turned on the Protestants "with a ferocity not seen for more than a century".^[13] The point of no return occurred on 28 January 1791, when Catholics cut off the tongue and fingers of Mr Barkeley, a popular schoolmaster from Forkhill, and his wife.^[13][15] As "the same hereditary enmities handed down from generation to generation" raged to the fore, violence spread to neighbouring counties.^[13]

^{Looks like the English are to blame}

[vikingTON]

When the SNP hold a parade in Stirling over Bannockburn over some old battle from centuries ago of questionable relevance to the present day is it also absolutely driven by hatred and intolerance?

"The SNP" are holding no such parade. Other than that just a terrific attempt at whataboutery from the forum's resident bigot apologist.

[vikingTON]

Am questioning HB's veneer of respectability when someone questions questionable employment practice in Catholic schools when, in reality, he twists it round to an argument about Protestant schools and makes snide remarks about those criticising the said dodgy employment practice, making snide comments describing them as "staunch" or Loyal", and then lambasts 3,000 people he has never met as scum.

He may not like them, and is more than entitled to that opinion, but it is hardly the terminology of a measured and reasoned man.

I can quite easily think of groups of more than 3,000 people who can justifiably be considered scum. Pretty much any neo-Nazi organisation for a start, up to and including their garden racist tag-alongs like 'Britain First'. Quite why you thought a child-like 'but you haven't met all of them!' response would work on an adult forum, who knows.

[parsforlife]

Was thinking more of your comment describing 3,000 people you have never met as "scum".

You don't need to meet people to decide where they if there scum or not, some are quite good at hiding it and you don't notice they are scum until you have known them a while, others however make it obvious, and if they are going to march around showing their scumbagery to all then there isn't really any reason to get to know them better before identifying them as scum. Edited May 23, 2014 by parsforlife

[LongTimeLurker]

I thought this was an informative, sensible read until you mentioned Rangers.

I think the only actively "practicing" Orangeman posting in this thread is an Aberdeen supporter, for what it's worth, which shows why stereotypes are best avoided. Not sure how informative the post really was beyond that. The Dan Winter's cottage stuff that revolved around rural paramilitarism didn't have much to do with what led to the growth of Orangeism later on in Ulster, the Scottish coalfields and beyond. Many/most Presbyterians were on the side of the United Irishmen in 1798 because 18th century Ireland wasn't a fun place to be if you weren't Anglican and it was the Presbyterians that had the numbers in Ulster rather than the CoI. What the LOL later provided was a vehicle for Protestants, who were split between several different denominations, to meet socially and organise in the face of an Irish nationalism that moved away from being inspired by the ideals of the French revolution to being driven by ancestral tribalism. Think people also tend to lose sight of the importance of the meeting socially angle on this in a just another excuse to get bevvied sort of way.

You don't need to meet people to decide where they if there scum or not....

But I bet he'll still deny being prejudiced against the aforementioned individuals.

[doulikefish]

Basically orange walkers are a bunch of c***s

[AberdeenBud]

Basically orange walkers are a bunch of c***s

But you can't say that, you haven't met them all. There might be a few nice supremacist bigots in amongst them.

[Gaz]

Basically orange walkers are a bunch of c***s

This, a thousand times this.

[Co.Down Hibee]

Is there much trouble in Scotland at Orange parades? Is it basically drunken jakey types following them?

[LongTimeLurker]

No, but some people simply can't stand the sight of a Union Flag and project their own hangups onto it in an exaggerated sort of way & not likely to be mistaken for a MENSA convention but more than just drunken jakey types lining the streets to watch the bands go by

[BossHogg]

Is there much trouble in Scotland at Orange parades? Is it basically drunken jakey types following them?

Yes , there's always lots Rangers fans there.

[AberdeenBud]

No, but some people simply can't stand the sight of a Union Flag and project their own hangups onto it in an exaggerated sort of way & not likely to be mistaken for a MENSA convention but more than just drunken jakey types lining the streets to watch the bands go by

^^^ word salad

[Half Rice Half Chips]

Anyone that openly carries a union jack in Scotland has leanings towards racist, extreme right wing brit nat groups like bnp, britain first, sdl, loyalist paramilitaries etc. There's never an "innocent" motive to someone carrying a uj in this country, in Scotland it's used as a flag of hate by these groups. I'm sorry but it's true.

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^Prime example of what I was talking about. How about Remembrance Sunday?

[Newbornbairn]

I'm not a Nat, I'm not a Catholic, I'm an ordinary Scottish guy born and raised. Can I ask a question?

Why, in 2014, are bigoted sectarian halfwits from an Irish political group allowed to parade through the streets of my town celebrating some shitey wee religious scuffle in a foreign country centuries ago?

This is an affront to modern society