LinkinFighter Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 What we have now is better. Currency union without political union doesnt work either. Not worth all the upheaval for something thats going to make us considerably worse off. No thanks. So if we eventually got our own currency or maybe the euro then you'd be all for independence? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 What we have now is better. Currency union without political union doesnt work either. Not worth all the upheaval for something thats going to make us considerably worse off. No thanks. Why is what we have now better? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) So if we eventually got our own currency or maybe the euro then you'd be all for independence? It would bother me less probably ,yes. The euro is a currency union without political union and as can be seen its not a good situation to be in when economies diverge. Edited January 7, 2014 by Reynard 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Why is what we have now better? We have currency union with political union. That alone is infinitely better than what is proposed in the white paper wouldnt you agree? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 We have currency union with political union. That alone is infinitely better than what is proposed in the white paper wouldnt you agree? Not really. It's far too simplistic to imply such a causal relationship. It doesn't cover, for example, a whole range of divergent tax base priorities, which under the existing political Union does not provide for in it's London size fits all theology. Scotland is demographically and geographically divergent from England. The economies, though broadly in line with each other are still divergent in terms of what we make and export: manufacturing in Scotland is still a larger % of the economy, our digital sector is proportionately stronger, while primary sector farming and oil extraction give a different character to the Scottish economy that is blotted out by London priorities. Currency Union without political union only really means a lack of control over interest rates, however we currently have little or no control over those anyway. The BoE is independent of Westminster and Scotland as a nation has no bargaining power with respect to the BoE and only a small minority of MPs to influence Westminster policy. For me, getting control of the tax base in the first instance is more important, and a currency Union, at least in the short term leaves us no worse off than we would be by staying in a ridiculously lop sided political union with England. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Not really. It's far too simplistic to imply such a causal relationship. It doesn't cover, for example, a whole range of divergent tax base priorities, which under the existing political Union does not provide for in it's London size fits all theology. Scotland is demographically and geographically divergent from England. The economies, though broadly in line with each other are still divergent in terms of what we make and export: manufacturing in Scotland is still a larger % of the economy, our digital sector is proportionately stronger, while primary sector farming and oil extraction give a different character to the Scottish economy that is blotted out by London priorities. Currency Union without political union only really means a lack of control over interest rates, however we currently have little or no control over those anyway. The BoE is independent of Westminster and Scotland as a nation has no bargaining power with respect to the BoE and only a small minority of MPs to influence Westminster policy. For me, getting control of the tax base in the first instance is more important, and a currency Union, at least in the short term leaves us no worse off than we would be by staying in a ridiculously lop sided political union with England. Currency union without political union doesnt work. Drivel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Currency union without political union doesnt work. Drivel. It's not so much a point to be argued but rather a mantra to be repeated for you, isn't it. Tell me, why can't it work ,and while your at it, tell me what vested powers Holyrood, or indeed the bloc of Scottish constituency MPs have, on influencing the BoE interest rates? Edited January 7, 2014 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 What's your point caller? It's well known that the infamous SNP payed for poll used a series of run up questions prior to asking the all important question. Both sides have used leading questions over the course to influence the outcome of the polling, Have they? What "leading questions" have non-SNP paid for polls used? And what is this other side? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The BoE is independent of Westminster You don't actually believe this do you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Have they? What "leading questions" have non-SNP paid for polls used? And what is this other side? Someone on this thread posted a link this morning to a YouGov poll paid for by BT that had an incredibly leading question over childcare policy, just as one example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You don't actually believe this do you? Nominally independent, the Prime Minister cannot directly force the governor to raise interest rates. Though no doubt there is plenty of other ways of influencing how the governor behaves with respect to interest rate. It still doesn't change the question though: What official vested powers does Holyrood, or the Scottish constituency MPs have to influence interest rates in such a way as to be beneficial to Scotland, currently? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Someone on this thread posted a link this morning to a YouGov poll paid for by BT that had an incredibly leading question over childcare policy, just as one example. Which poll was this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Which poll was this? http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/do-you-think-alex-salmond-should-give.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ScotGoesPop+(SCOT+goes+POP Link to the Scot goes Pop blog on the subject. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/do-you-think-alex-salmond-should-give.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ScotGoesPop+(SCOT+goes+POP Link to the Scot goes Pop blog on the subject. Right, so not a referendum poll. Only the SNP have bought a poll on the referendum. As I said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 It's not so much a point to be argued but rather a mantra to be repeated for you, isn't it. Tell me, why can't it work ,and while your at it, tell me what vested powers Holyrood, or indeed the bloc of Scottish constituency MPs have, on influencing the BoE interest rates? Are you still labouring under the mistaken belief that the state central bank is somehow independent of the politicians? Really? Do you even understand what they are for and how they operate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 And of course the reason why the SNP bought a poll was because they are having their arses handed to them on a plate in every neutral poll. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 And of course the reason why the SNP bought a poll was because they are having their arses handed to them on a plate in every neutral poll. Keeps morale up a bit for the useful idiots with the balloons and leaflets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Right, so not a referendum poll. Only the SNP have bought a poll on the referendum. As I said. What is your actual fucking point here? Nothing I've written to date, and nothing in the post you originally quoted before engaging in this particular bout of ad lib style pedantry suggested that BT had bought a poll on the referendum, this was never a point I made, nor one I've argued in favour of. I merely stated, and am correct to state that the pollster companies themselves are impartial (they are), that both sides can use, and do use different questions to influence the outcomes of these polls regardless of whether it's the referendum question or not (and both the SNP "bought" poll and the YouGov one I linked to are evidence of this) I also said that different pollsters use different sampling strategies to weight their polls (according to YouGov and TNS, Lamont should be first minister). So at what point did I suggest that BT "bought" a poll, and what parts of what I've written above do you find innacurate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Are you still labouring under the mistaken belief that the state central bank is somehow independent of the politicians? Really? Do you even understand what they are for and how they operate? Already answered in response to HB, perhaps you'd care to tell me what official powers, what offices and statutes either Holyrood or the Scottish constituency MPs can use to influence the Governor's decisions, thereby illustrating how Scotland's elected officials are able, currently, to suggest more beneficial fiscal strategies for Scotland and her people? Edited January 7, 2014 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 What is your actual fucking point here? Nothing I've written to date, and nothing in the post you originally quoted before engaging in this particular bout of ad lib style pedantry suggested that BT had bought a poll on the referendum, this was never a point I made, nor one I've argued in favour of. I merely stated, and am correct to state that the pollster companies themselves are impartial (they are), that both sides can use, and do use different questions to influence the outcomes of these polls regardless of whether it's the referendum question or not (and both the SNP "bought" poll and the YouGov one I linked to are evidence of this) I also said that different pollsters use different sampling strategies to weight their polls (according to YouGov and TNS, Lamont should be first minister). So at what point did I suggest that BT "bought" a poll, and what parts of what I've written above do you find innacurate? You stated that the difference between Panelbase and the others was their weighting, whether Holyrood or Westminster. Which conveniently ignored that both the SNP and WoS have bought Panelbase polls and trued to manipulate the results to create a different narrative from the actual truth - which is that all neutral polling shows the SNP getting taken behind the woodshed for an absolute bleaching. The referendum pollsters themselves are impartial. As I said. The referendum polls themselves are not necessarily impartial as shown by the SNP buying one in an act of utter desperation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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