H_B Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Oh goody, another argument about which side is more wrong than the other. It harrows me that this is probably what most debates will be like over the next three months. What would be good is if people accepted that it's a personal choice fir voters to make and there's no right answer. Yes or No - I respect people's right to vote that way whatever their reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 You had a point ? No, why would you ask that ? Yes, but as usual you were too enraged and obsessed to see it. Why would I ask that? I just thought it was fair to point out to people as you endlessly chase me around the forum in an entirely creepy way that you are in no position to be getting on your high horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Why would I follow you about a forum, fking hell step back from the computer mate. It's not you it's your posts, there fking dreadful at times. I would suggest you get off your little podium and take a rest for awhile. Lawlz. Everyone knows you follow me around the place. Also - you seem upset. Don't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Reynard is making this argument on twitter. The UKIP supporter trying to link supporting SNP with fascists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveFanDan Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Seems a bit ironic that BT and Labour keep playing the Nazi card, when you consider that every single far-right, neo-Nazi, and fascist group in the Uk is explicitly and vocally unionist. It's always been that way. Oswald Mosley was a Cabinet Minister in a Labour Government ffs, before he went full-loony. Glass houses, thrown stones, etc. They better hope no one knows the history of fascism and Nazi sympathizers in Britain - it is far more damaging to their side than it is to the SNP. Or it would be if it was reported on honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Seems a bit ironic that BT and Labour keep playing the Nazi card, when you consider that every single far-right, neo-Nazi, and fascist group in the Uk is explicitly and vocally unionist. It's always been that way. Oswald Mosley was a Cabinet Minister in a Labour Government ffs, before he went full-loony. Glass houses, thrown stones, etc. They better hope no one knows the history of fascism and Nazi sympathizers in Britain - it is far more damaging to their side than it is to the SNP. Or it would be if it was reported on honestly. Oh dear. I suggest you Google Arthur Donaldson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Oh dear. I suggest you Google Arthur Donaldson According to Google, Arthur Donaldson is the current Treasurer of the Retired Police Officers Association Scotland. Is Half_Baked suggesting that our Police force are Nazis? Disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 According to Google, Arthur Donaldson is the current Treasurer of the Retired Police Officers Association Scotland. Is Half_Baked suggesting that our Police force are Nazis? Disgusting. No he isn't. He's contesting the claim that "every single far-right, neo-Nazi, and fascist group in the Uk is explicitly and vocally unionist. It's always been that way." Arthur Donaldson was a Nazi sympathiser and a key figure in the Scottish independence movement. Other key figures like Dewar Gibb and McDiarmid were also sympathetic to the cause of Hitler's regime in what they characterise as an imperial English War. It is quite legitimate to say therefore that there were fascist tendencies within the Scottish nationalist movement around the time of the Second World War. Clearly such views are no longer prominent and organised in the same sense today, but it is clearly incorrect to say that "it's always been that way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveFanDan Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Oh dear. I suggest you Google Arthur Donaldson I have done, many times, but never saw anything designating him as a group. Conversely, when I google the British Fascisti, British Union of Fascists, British Movement, British National Front, British National Party, Britannica, Britain First, etc. they do seem to be groups - explicity unionist ones, and explicitly fascist to greater or lesser degrees (some are openly Nazi) in their ideology. The same thing happens when I google the Right Club, League of Empire Loyalists, Cliveden Set, and so on. So in terms of fascist groups in Britain, yes, it has "always been that way" - they have always been noticeably unionist in outlook. The blueshirts in Ireland obviously weren't unionist in the same way, but the Republic had already left the UK by the time they rose to prominence, so they don't really count as a British or UK group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I have done, many times, but never saw anything designating him as a group. Conversely, when I google the British Fascisti, British Union of Fascists, British Movement, British National Front, British National Party, Britannica, Britain First, etc. they do seem to be groups - explicity unionist ones, and explicitly fascist to greater or lesser degrees (some are openly Nazi) in their ideology. The same thing happens when I google the Right Club, League of Empire Loyalists, Cliveden Set, and so on. You specifically named Oswald Mosley. Why nit Arthur Donaldson? The SNP Nazi sympathiser and wannabe Quisling? Did you just forget about the SNPs links to Nazism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 No he isn't. He's contesting the claim that "every single far-right, neo-Nazi, and fascist group in the Uk is explicitly and vocally unionist. It's always been that way." Arthur Donaldson was a Nazi sympathiser and a key figure in the Scottish independence movement. Other key figures like Dewar Gibb and McDiarmid were also sympathetic to the cause of Hitler's regime in what they characterise as an imperial English War. It is quite legitimate to say therefore that there were fascist tendencies within the Scottish nationalist movement around the time of the Second World War. Clearly such views are no longer prominent and organised in the same sense today, but it is clearly incorrect to say that "it's always been that way". I followed Half_Baked's instruction to "Google Arthur Donaldson". The first link that came up was Arthur Donaldson MBE. He's an ex-cop. However, when you google the same thing, you obviously get a page entitled "What H_B thinks" Funny that. Incidentally, do you really think that I'm not aware of the history of the SNP, and know that Donaldson was never charged with any offence? I'm also aware that no evidence of M15 allegations against him have ever been produced. However, as part of the Law Squad, I'm sure you know that you can't defame a dead man. Well done you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveFanDan Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 No, I didn't forget about the allegations. Donaldson was never tried, and was released without charge after just six weeks by the Scottish Office (not a body sympathetic to the idea of independence, then or now). The allegations came from a single informant reporting to Mi5 during a very fearful time in Britain's history. To paint this as "the SNP's links to Nazism" is a bit rich, given the noted propensity of high-ups in the British establishment to have actual serving Nazi ministers over for tea and biscuits on many ocassions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 There's lots of stuff out there about Donaldson's Nazi sympathies - but then he wasn't alone in the 30s. The likes of Baden-Powell and others on the right tolerated if not admired Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 There's lots of stuff out there about Donaldson's Nazi sympathies - but then he wasn't alone in the 30s. The likes of Baden-Powell and others on the right tolerated if not admired Hitler. No, it is a ruse. SNP were anti-war, some folk don't like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Incidentally, do you really think that I'm not aware of the history of the SNP, and know that Donaldson was never charged with any offence? I'm also aware that no evidence of M15 allegations against him have ever been produced. However, as part of the Law Squad, I'm sure you know that you can't defame a dead man. Well done you. You're setting a low bar for exoneration. It wasn't a crime to be a Nazi sympathiser or to be a fascist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 You're setting a low bar for exoneration. It wasn't a crime to be a Nazi sympathiser or to be a fascist. Show me some sources. You are fabricating shit. Not sure why you would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Show me some sources. You are fabricating shit. Not sure why you would. MI5 released details of conversations between Donaldson and an informant which document, in 1941, after atrocities such as Kristallnacht, was describing WWII as an English war and that they "were not with them" and that he looked forward to assistance from Germany in their "struggle" against the English. Just because his widow denies it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 MI5 released details of conversations between Donaldson and an informant which document, in 1941, after atrocities such as Kristallnacht, was describing WWII as an English war and that they "were not with them" and that he looked forward to assistance from Germany in their "struggle" against the English. Just because his widow denies it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you have hearsay? Young supported draft-dodging. Kristallnacht... um... whit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 You're setting a low bar for exoneration. It wasn't a crime to be a Nazi sympathiser or to be a fascist. Agreed. We could look to the royal family for examples. However, Mosely was interned for the majority of the war, and the BUF were proscribed. Can you say the same about any SNP leader or the SNP itself? There are varying shades of grey. Not everything is as black & white as Half_Baked presents it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 MI5 released details of conversations between Donaldson and an informant which document, in 1941, after atrocities such as Kristallnacht, was describing WWII as an English war and that they "were not with them" and that he looked forward to assistance from Germany in their "struggle" against the English. Just because his widow denies it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I thought that you were a lawyer? Where's your evidence from a specifc witness, your proof & your corroboration? It doesn't matter a f*ck what Mrs Donaldson claims if there is no case to answer in the first place Edited to tidy up original post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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