LongTimeLurker Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Flying a KKK flag just doesn't make sense for the loyalist regime It doesn't make sense from any standpoint which is why the flag was taken down pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Well I'm bigoted against murdering psychopaths so you're right there. But confusing with "Loyalist" with "Unionist" is a grave error. Voting for a party that wishes to remain within the UK is markedly different from identifying yourself with a movement with terrorist connotations. See also Republicanism vs Nationalism. As the Unionist (and afore you say it, Nationalist) crowd have been/are associated with 'terrorist' groups, that is a moot point. But unlike the Republicians/Nationalists, the Loyalists/Unionists are concentrated in the various factions of one Religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Flying a KKK flag just doesn't make sense for the loyalist regime Recession on, it was cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 What on earth would give you that impression? You tell me? Well I'm bigoted against murdering psychopaths so you're right there. But confusing with "Loyalist" with "Unionist" is a grave error. Voting for a party that wishes to remain within the UK is markedly different from identifying yourself with a movement with terrorist connotations. See also Republicanism vs Nationalism. I know where you're going with that, and I sympathise entirely, but I'm not so sure I agree. I have always found identity very difficult to define when talking about myself and my Northern Irish background. I am not Protestant insofar as I rejected the religion my mother tried hard to give me, but I was brought up within the Protestant community so there is a little bit of that in me. I am not particularly Unionist either, politically speaking, but I wish Northern Ireland to remain in the UK, so I must be a little Unionist. I am a little Loyalist too, in that I grew up in those communities, and I should be able to describe myself as "Loyalist" without having to be identified with psychopathic murderers, and I certainly do not support the thuggery and violence associated with Loyalist paramilitaries, or with anyone for that matter. I often end up saying I am from the Unionist/Loyalist/Protestant community, with the order being utterly irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I think people are making the mistake of viewing them as some form of political movement when really they are mindless idiots. i wonder how they would even get their hands on such a flag Off the internet maybe? All it takes is one cretin on something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 As the Unionist (and afore you say it, Nationalist) crowd have been/are associated with 'terrorist' groups, that is a moot point. But unlike the Republicians/Nationalists, the Loyalists/Unionists are concentrated in the various factions of one Religion. Are you seriously saying that the former aren't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lithgierose Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 You tell me? I know where you're going with that, and I sympathise entirely, but I'm not so sure I agree. I have always found identity very difficult to define when talking about myself and my Northern Irish background. I am not Protestant insofar as I rejected the religion my mother tried hard to give me, but I was brought up within the Protestant community so there is a little bit of that in me. I am not particularly Unionist either, politically speaking, but I wish Northern Ireland to remain in the UK, so I must be a little Unionist. I am a little Loyalist too, in that I grew up in those communities, and I should be able to describe myself as "Loyalist" without having to be identified with psychopathic murderers, and I certainly do not support the thuggery and violence associated with Loyalist paramilitaries, or with anyone for that matter. I often end up saying I am from the Unionist/Loyalist/Protestant community, with the order being utterly irrelevant. i come from falkirk would do surely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Richelieu Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Fair enough AFJ, I agree that the waters have been muddied over time, although "loyalism / republicanism" remain the more pejorative term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 i come from falkirk would do surely "When talking about my Northern Irish background". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Fair enough AFJ, I agree that the waters have been muddied over time, although "loyalism / republicanism" remain the more pejorative term. And the extremists on both sides are fannies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lithgierose Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 "When talking about my Northern Irish background". i have irish roots as well.but never have any reason to discuss it.must move in different circles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Are you seriously saying that the former aren't? From my experience, 'Yes'. Throughout Norn history there are not that many 'non prods' on the L/U side, yet the R/N side is littered with 'non cath'. Personally I have only known one Loyalist Catholic. Good guy, eventually bought a pub on the Worst Pubs thread , but spoiled it with a pic of him and DJ on the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Stereotyping an entire country / province on the actions of a bigoted minority. Except it's not really just 'a' minority. The wider sectarian based communities on both sides have been culpable for aiding violent so-called 'minorities' within their ranks and obstructing any vague attempts at justice for decades. Which is why organised terrorist groups and paramilitaries have operated in Norn Ireland and nowhere else in the region - without wider cooperation, you can't hope to run an organised group, regardless of your more or less ridiculous basis and actually get away with it. Secondly, the reported rates of racism in Norn Ireland are appallingly high - far higher than in any comparable country, where of course 'a minority' of racists by action also exist - and are clearly linked to the aforementioned groups who continue to operate with the assistance of wider communities. So on both counts, the idea that its the shameful work of a mysteriously effective minority delegates all responsibility from a shambolic, disgraceful civil society which facilitates such groups and a level of racist attacks far above individual, disorganised hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Richelieu Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Except it's not really just 'a' minority. The wider sectarian based communities on both sides have been culpable for aiding violent so-called 'minorities' within their ranks and obstructing any vague attempts at justice for decades. Which is why organised terrorist groups and paramilitaries have operated in Norn Ireland and nowhere else in the region - without wider cooperation, you can't hope to run an organised group, regardless of your more or less ridiculous basis and actually get away with it. Secondly, the reported rates of racism in Norn Ireland are appallingly high - far higher than in any comparable country, where of course 'a minority' of racists by action also exist - and are clearly linked to the aforementioned groups who continue to operate with the assistance of wider communities. So on both counts, the idea that its the shameful work of a mysteriously effective minority delegates all responsibility from a shambolic, disgraceful civil society which facilitates such groups and a level of racist attacks far above individual, disorganised hate. Well you could argue that 1 person under 750,000 people would make it a minority, but I think we both know that the numbers involved are far far fewer. Sadly, terrorist organisations still hold a great sway in many communities on both sides of the divide - although the focus nowadays is less on the traditional enemy and more towards aggregating money, power and influence. Racist / bigoted / violent people are still drawn to these organisations for obvious reasons. Does the ordinary man in the street hate Protestants / Catholics / anyone with different coloured skin? No. most people realise - much as they do in Scotland or anywhere else - that these people are not a threat to their way of life. It's only through pressure / fear of the powerful minority that they are unable to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 From my experience, 'Yes'. Throughout Norn history there are not that many 'non prods' on the L/U side, yet the R/N side is littered with 'non cath'. Personally I have only known one Loyalist Catholic. Good guy, eventually bought a pub on the Worst Pubs thread , but spoiled it with a pic of him and DJ on the wall. Well have to agree to disagree on that one then. I know of isolated incidences on both sides, like the high profile major's son who joined the INLA, but, largely speaking, the communities do not cross barriers well, even politically. There was also a Catholic UDA member near where I grew up, in one of North Belfast's worst Loyalist areas, (so bad I was afraid to go there, even for a late night drink). Can also think of a high profile Loyalist whose wife was from an RC background, and seemed to become an, "uberprod", to try and prove herself to the north Belfast community she lived in. Anyway, back to the clichéd and stereotyped posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Well you could argue that 1 person under 750,000 people would make it a minority, but I think we both know that the numbers involved are far far fewer. Sadly, terrorist organisations still hold a great sway in many communities on both sides of the divide - although the focus nowadays is less on the traditional enemy and more towards aggregating money, power and influence. Racist / bigoted / violent people are still drawn to these organisations for obvious reasons. Does the ordinary man in the street hate Protestants / Catholics / anyone with different coloured skin? No. most people realise - much as they do in Scotland or anywhere else - that these people are not a threat to their way of life. It's only through pressure / fear of the powerful minority that they are unable to do anything about it. Spot on. I stood up to the UDA once, (drink and Dutch courage may have been involved), and I ended up with a depressed fracture of the cheekbone and a few nice bruises. The "wider community" do not support the UVF/IRA, they are afraid to be seen not supporting them. Obviously there are areas where these organisations garner support, but these tend to be the most depressed, least educated areas. Additionally, there are areas where people cohabit quite harmoniously, much to the chagrin of the bigoted fucktards on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Well have to agree to disagree on that one then. I know of isolated incidences on both sides, like the high profile major's son who joined the INLA, but, largely speaking, the communities do not cross barriers well, even politically. There was also a Catholic UDA member near where I grew up, in one of North Belfast's worst Loyalist areas, (so bad I was afraid to go there, even for a late night drink). Can also think of a high profile Loyalist whose wife was from an RC background, and seemed to become an, "uberprod", to try and prove herself to the north Belfast community she lived in. Anyway, back to the clichéd and stereotyped posts. Hence why I said 'Personally'....... The INLA boy I remember but didn't know him obv, so I gave the one instance of someone I knew. I ''think'' some of Carsons backers were Catholic (monied, not wanting to give it up), but on the other side there was a litany of them. '' Protestant Men'' the 'folk' song lists some of the 'Heroes' of the Republicans, I doubt there is a similar song on the Loyalist side. Off the top of my head, Tandy, Burke were Quakers, Tone, the Sheares brothers, McCracken, the Emmett brothers and Parnell were all prods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Hence why I said 'Personally'....... The INLA boy I remember but didn't know him obv, so I gave the one instance of someone I knew. I ''think'' some of Carsons backers were Catholic (monied, not wanting to give it up), but on the other side there was a litany of them. '' Protestant Men'' the 'folk' song lists some of the 'Heroes' of the Republicans, I doubt there is a similar song on the Loyalist side. Off the top of my head, Tandy, Burke were Quakers, Tone, the Sheares brothers, McCracken, the Emmett brothers and Parnell were all prods. True, but there is little or no modern equivalence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 True, but there is little or no modern equivalence. Define ''modern''.............. As an aside and back to the Ulster Scots, I see the lingo gets the same cash as the Oirish Gaelic in Norn as part of the Peace Process Considering it will be confined to Portavogie, Ayrshire and Kintyre (probably) that is a hooruva amount of cash for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidernation Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Well f**k me. Bigots galore on here, hope lots of warning points issued! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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