All things Dundee FC

[Boo Khaki]

17 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

What?

You're the one claiming the domestic game in Scotland is holding the National team back, then using Austria, who's domestic game has zero impact on their National team, as an example.

Maybe our issues compared to Austria are because our players end up in England, and they're worse at developing players than Germany?

Its utterly ridiculous to claim part time clubs are the issue and should be punted out the league.

I gave the example of Austria because it's a country with nearly twice our population, but a league setup with fewer than half the clubs we cram into ours. The same with Switzerland. The point wasn't that they produce far greater numbers of quality footballers than us, but that it's clear that the vast majority of countries around our size see smaller sized leagues as a sensible, more practicable proposition. Why that is, you'd have to ask them, but it's another example of where Scotland differs, so I don't think you can completely dismiss it as irrelevant when you're comparing the relative fortunes of our national sides. 

The thing I think that is pertinent is that the clubs in countries with smaller leagues tend to have a far greater depth to their structure, i.e more age-group sides, ladies sides etc, so I think there's a possible condensing of resources and talent that we don't have because it's spread too thin between our glut of clubs right across the various levels, not just the SPFL.

A lot is made of the success of our age group national sides, and it's often queried why that doesn't translate into success at full national level. To be honest, I'm not sure that the 'success' of our age group sides isn't itself a failing. It's indicative of the fact that our system is somehow producing players that are over-developed at 18-21, yet stagnate and suffer from there on. Surely the end-goal is to produce quality mature professional footballers and reap the rewards of a full adult career, not players who peak at 21-22 and never push on. I don't accept that our league football plays no part in that failing. 

Denmark is another example of a small country with a smaller domestic league, but successful National side. I can't think of a European country with a population of 5-10 million say, that does have upwards of 35 teams in the football league and has a successful national side. Perhaps the Netherlands, but then, their league has expanded a fair bit over the past ten years, and even the 'tinpot' pro clubs that play in front of a couple of thousand folk at most still have the full setup in terms of facilities, coaching standards, proof of solvency before a licence is granted etc

I'm happy to concede that the size of our league may well just be a product of the fact that Scots are so supportive of football clubs in general that you can start one practically anywhere and it'll attain some sort of following, whereas in those other countries there simply isn't the interest to support twice the number of clubs.  

Anyway, again, I'm not suggesting 'punting' part time clubs out of the league. I never have and I don't see that as part of the solution. In my mind the problem lies far more with the intransigence of long-standing professional clubs who live a day-to-day, hand-to-mouth existence, pissing their entire turnovers on wages for mediocre pros because they don't produce any talent of their own.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[johnnydun]

Don't get me wrong, I like Gordon Strachan.

He can be witty and funny at times, he clearly knows a lot about the game.

But maybe, just maybe, once he has made his little quip, someone should just take the mic from him. WGS being left to babble never turns out well.

[Derry Alli]

Strachan is spot on.

[Crawford]

27 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

WGS being left to babble never turns out well.

What's happened now?

[Boo Khaki]

12 minutes ago, Crawford said:

What's happened now?

Strachan telling a few home truths about the state of the Scottish league has the denialists frothing again.

I suspect that article is heavily selective with it's quotes in order to provoke maximum seethe. Given how keen some folk were to take his comments about the physique of Scots footballers completely out of context I'm not surprised.

[Ludo*1]

McPake being trashed by Stephen Elliott in the Daily Record:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/james-mcpakes-hes-st-hibs-22069878

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ludo*1

[Dee Bliss]

RandomGuy if the domestic game isn’t holding back the National team then wtf is  

 

Strachan’s 100% correct. 

[Dee Bliss]

4 hours ago, Aufc said:

 

I would suggest the issue in scotland is not the fact we have smaller clubs who “dont produce players”. These clubs are sometimes at the heart of the community and for him to say they dont deserve to be in the league because of this is a bit silly.

 

Do these club’s floating about league 2 year in year out cease becoming a community club if the leagues were restructured to include leading junior /highland/low league clubs who would easily compete with these community clubs? 1 team promoted into league 2 out of all these clubs isn’t quite right. 

[RandomGuy.]

2 hours ago, Crawford said:

What's happened now?

Hes claiming part time sides dont deserve to share a league with full time sides.

Add this to his previous quotes about wanting one, closed shop, division of full time sides, about how Scotland just need more talk players, and when he said abuse of Adam Johnson after his release from jail would be as bad as racism.

Hes a moron

[Dee Bliss]

7 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Hes claiming part time sides dont deserve to share a league with full time sides.

Add this to his previous quotes about wanting one, closed shop, division of full time sides, about how Scotland just need more talk players, and when he said abuse of Adam Johnson after his release from jail would be as bad as racism.

Hes a moron

Spoofer, that’s not how he put it. 
 

He’s citing clubs showing a lack of ambition, aimlessly plodding along in the lower leagues without a youth structure, paying players wages of some Junior sides and expecting to have the same vote as clubs that are showing a bit more ambition. He isn’t having a pop at Arbroath and Alloa for example. 
 

He’s also talking about the Scottish product from top to bottom. He doesn’t think clubs in the top flight should have AstroTurf saying we are trying to sell a product around the world that isn’t helped by this. Very hard to disagree with him. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Yenitit

[RandomGuy.]

2 hours ago, Crawford said:

What's happened now?

Hes claiming part time sides dont deserve to share a league with full time sides.

Add this to his previous quotes about wanting one, closed shop, division of full time sides, about how Scotland just need more talk players, and when he said abuse of Adam Johnson after his release from jail would be as bad as racism.

Hes a moron

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

I gave the example of Austria because it's a country with nearly twice our population, but a league setup with fewer than half the clubs we cram into ours. The same with Switzerland. The point wasn't that they produce far greater numbers of quality footballers than us, but that it's clear that the vast majority of countries around our size see smaller sized leagues as a sensible, more practicable proposition. Why that is, you'd have to ask them, but it's another example of where Scotland differs, so I don't think you can completely dismiss it as irrelevant when you're comparing the relative fortunes of our national sides. 

The thing I think that is pertinent is that the clubs in countries with smaller leagues tend to have a far greater depth to their structure, i.e more age-group sides, ladies sides etc, so I think there's a possible condensing of resources and talent that we don't have because it's spread too thin between our glut of clubs right across the various levels, not just the SPFL.

A lot is made of the success of our age group national sides, and it's often queried why that doesn't translate into success at full national level. To be honest, I'm not sure that the 'success' of our age group sides isn't itself a failing. It's indicative of the fact that our system is somehow producing players that are over-developed at 18-21, yet stagnate and suffer from there on. Surely the end-goal is to produce quality mature professional footballers and reap the rewards of a full adult career, not players who peak at 21-22 and never push on. I don't accept that our league football plays no part in that failing. 

Denmark is another example of a small country with a smaller domestic league, but successful National side. I can't think of a European country with a population of 5-10 million say, that does have upwards of 35 teams in the football league and has a successful national side. Perhaps the Netherlands, but then, their league has expanded a fair bit over the past ten years, and even the 'tinpot' pro clubs that play in front of a couple of thousand folk at most still have the full setup in terms of facilities, coaching standards, proof of solvency before a licence is granted etc

I'm happy to concede that the size of our league may well just be a product of the fact that Scots are so supportive of football clubs in general that you can start one practically anywhere and it'll attain some sort of following, whereas in those other countries there simply isn't the interest to support twice the number of clubs.  

Anyway, again, I'm not suggesting 'punting' part time clubs out of the league. I never have and I don't see that as part of the solution. In my mind the problem lies far more with the intransigence of long-standing professional clubs who live a day-to-day, hand-to-mouth existence, pissing their entire turnovers on wages for mediocre pros because they don't produce any talent of their own.

You've spent the whole post moaning about the amount of teams and how other nations have fewer, and then contradicted yourself.

You're not even arguing Strachans point. He was moaning about part time clubs getting a vote to decide what happens in the top tier.

[Ludo*1]

Have to say, I respect Strachan, I'm glad he's at our club and I think he's got tremendous knowledge on the Scottish game. I don't entirely agree with him on this one though. If we had a closed shop - Would the national team improve? Possibly, with increased funding going to the FT clubs and subsequently their development teams. That doesn't mean the PT clubs should just be discarded though. I am in favour of an open pyramid system rather than shut off elitism which is what Strachan seems to be favouring here.

In addition to this, I'd much rather go watch Arbroath/Forfar etc than watch the Scottish national team, but maybe that's just me. International football is just a shite distraction from club football IMO.

[Boo Khaki]

29 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

You've spent the whole post moaning about the amount of teams and how other nations have fewer, and then contradicted yourself.

You're not even arguing Strachans point. He was moaning about part time clubs getting a vote to decide what happens in the top tier.

Sorry, I don't see how it's in any way a contradiction.

The problem as I see it isn't simply one of too many clubs. There are too many clubs that just meander along from season to season achieving absolutely nothing apart from punting pies to the diehards every other week, and a whole load more who do that, but also run at a perpetual loss while acting as if they have a god-given right to a place in whatever echelon they consider to be their natural habitat.

It's clear there are extremely well run part-time clubs, and also extremely poorly run professional clubs. If there's a 'lack of professionalism', it's self-evidently not because of the simple fact that some clubs chose to operate with a perfectly sensible, viable part-time model, but that there are clubs who run a full-time model when it's clear they really couldn't if they weren't massively subsidised by private individuals, but not only that, they spend well beyond their means and still achieve and produce bugger all of any substance.

In short, I'm perfectly happy for half the clubs in the SPFL to continue on using their part-time model, but I do think there's a whole lot that could be done to sharpen up the operating practices of a lot of our full-time clubs. They might be 'professional' in the respect that they have full-time staff and players, but they don't conduct their business in anything like a professional manner. The smaller leagues elsewhere don't have this problem to anything like our extent, primarily because clubs that try to operate  the way some of ours do either fail to get a licence in the first place or find themselves swiftly removed from the league altogether. It's as much a problem of poor governance as it is about the size of our league. A lot of our clubs are simply permitted to be intransigent, indefinitely, until the shit hits the fan, then it's all 'woe betide us' in spite of the fact calamity was inevitable all along.

If that creates a more strident two-tier system where there's a clear gulf between part-time and professional, then I really don't have any time for the inevitable gripes. As I said, I'm of the opinion that the 'success' of Alloa and Arbroath is as much about the lack of depth and quality in our league. If you're part-time and want to mix it with full-time clubs, then prove it, get your house in order and meet the criterion for admission to a fully professional, properly administered and governed league. There would inevitably be room after the first wave of long-term tinpot full-time clubs get refused a licence and bombed down to 4th tier.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[RandomGuy.]

17 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Sorry, I don't see how it's in any way a contradiction.

The problem as I see it isn't simply one of too many clubs. There are too many clubs that just meander along from season to season achieving absolutely nothing apart from punting pies to the diehards every other week, and a whole load more who do that, but also run at a perpetual loss while acting as if they have a god-given right to a place in whatever echelon they consider to be their natural habitat.

It's clear there are extremely well run part-time clubs, and also extremely poorly run professional clubs. If there's a 'lack of professionalism', it's self-evidently not because of the simple fact that some clubs chose to operate with a perfectly sensible, viable part-time model, but that there are clubs who run a full-time model when it's clear they really couldn't if they weren't massively subsidised by private individuals, but not only that, they spend well beyond their means and still achieve and produce bugger all of any substance.

In short, I'm perfectly happy for half the clubs in the SPFL to continue on using their part-time model, but I do think there's a whole lot that could be done to sharpen up the operating practices of a lot of our full-time clubs. They might be 'professional' in the respect that they have full-time staff and players, but they don't conduct their business in anything like a professional manner. The smaller leagues elsewhere don't have this problem to anything like our extent, primarily because clubs that try to operate  the way some of ours do either fail to get a licence in the first place or find themselves swiftly removed from the league altogether. It's as much a problem of poor governance as it is about the size of our league. A lot of our clubs are simply permitted to be intransigent, indefinitely, until the shit hits the fan, then it's all 'woe betide us' in spite of the fact calamity was inevitable all along.

If that creates a more strident two-tier system where there's a clear gulf between part-time and professional, then I really don't have any time for the inevitable gripes. As I said, I'm of the opinion that the 'success' of Alloa and Arbroath is as much about the lack of depth and quality in our league. If you're part-time and want to mix it with full-time clubs, then prove it, get your house in order and meet the criterion for admission to a fully professional, properly administered and governed league. There would inevitably be room after the first wave of long-term tinpot full-time clubs get refused a licence and bombed down to 4th tier.

I'm sure the irony of yourself, and Strachan, berating clubs who dont live up to their potential and instead waste fortunes on jobber/useless players is completely lost on you both.

Strachan lost me when he started demanding people stop abusing Adam Johnson and compared Johnson to players who suffer racist abuse, maybe I'm biased against him now.

[Boo Khaki]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm sure the irony of yourself, and Strachan, berating clubs who dont live up to their potential and instead waste fortunes on jobber/useless players is completely lost on you both.

Strachan lost me when he started demanding people stop abusing Adam Johnson and compared Johnson to players who suffer racist abuse, maybe I'm biased against him now.

Which sort of clubs do you think I'm referring to exactly?

You're utterly wrong, yet again.

Actually, f**k it, for the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about clubs exactly like Dundee FC

Edited May 26, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Boo Khaki said:

Which sort of clubs do you think I'm referring to exactly?

You're utterly wrong, yet again.

Strachan made it clear the clubs he was going after.

Quote

"When you talk about clubs coming into the league, what are they bringing in? Two hundred people per week to a game, is that really professional football?

"The teams in the bottom two leagues at the moment, in general, how many players have they produced over the last 14 years?"

You're on here defending him so I'm assuming your making the same point.

[Boo Khaki]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Strachan made it clear the clubs he was going after.

You're on here defending him so I'm assuming your making the same point.

Not quite.

I think there's a degree of truth in what he's getting at, but I don't agree that the problem is the simple fact we have part-time teams in the league structure. As I said, a 'lack of professionalism' doesn't just apply to clubs who operate on a part-time model. You can be a full-time club and still be wholly 'unprofessional' in the way you conduct yourself.

Dundee have been guilty of short termism for decades, one of the most egregious examples. Not so much perhaps since Keyes took over, but there was a near forty year period where it was one set of chancers after the next, living well beyond means etc. It's well documented what happened. It's happened to other clubs before and since. My point is that it's a fundamental lack of 'professionalism' on the side of governance that permits clubs to be run like this in the first place.

Haplessly meandering along happens at all levels, it's not a problem exclusive to 'tinpot' or part-time clubs, so if Strachan's implying it's all the fault of small clubs then he's wrong on that point. That doesn't mean there's no substance or truth in his wider argument though.

[Ludo*1]

Matt Lockwood saying Leigh Griffiths was unprofessional, not a team player and we didn't miss him when he left. Says he was the only one that didn't buy into the team spirit in the Deefiant season and was all for himself.

[Spikethedee]

Adam Bogdan being released by Hibs.

 

Must admit, don't know too much about him, but the questions to ask are:

1 - Is he better than what we have?

2 - Would he be willing to join us rather than go elsewhere?

3 - Would he be affordable?

 

Thoughts???