All things Dundee FC

[Boo Khaki]

7 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

14 points we've lost from winning positions this season. Multiple times we've been in the lead and multiple times by more than one goal. We've not got a lot of dig in our team so when Docherty tries to go and play McInnes-ball it's always asking for trouble.

The system we play is utterly useless at stifling teams who are pushing all-out and flooding forward. Doc persists with a lightweight three man midfield even when we are multiple goals to the good. It's way past the point of stubbornness and he really needs to swallow his pride, change it when we're ahead in the game, and look to completely kill it with extra bodies in midfield.

Edited January 24 by Boo Khaki

[hk blues]

6 hours ago, LM_0803 said:

Struggling to get on board with the docherty hype train I must say. 

I don't buy into the celebration of where we currently are just because we usually stink the place out. The season isn't over, we could still finish 11th and go down. It's not inconceivable. Motherwell and livi can't be terrible for the rest of the season and saints have turned a wee corner under levein. 

When you've had a bunch of numpties at the helm for a good few seasons it's hard not to buy into Docherty.  Yes, we could finish 11th, or 12th even, but there are a few contenders for that so let's look at where we are now and see where we go on Saturday. 

[Derry Alli]

See when I see builders putting a house up and it's half way done in a fortnight, I think "Aye, it could be finished in two weeks but it might fall down today. Sure, they're doing a brilliant job and so much better than anyone anticipated but I think they could do more".

What a shitey way to look at Docherty and the players. Unless you give them stupid money then for the next while it's one step at a time. So far, they've skipped a couple of steps and there's another rebuild on the way in the summer.

[RandomGuy.]

For a manager 19 games into his first job, in the top flight, with a newly promoted side who needed completely rebuilt, Docherty is doing great.

Look at McInnes at Kilmarnock for an example of how he'll see you progressing. Year 1 is all about gaining a foothold in the division and making yourself more attractive to players wanting to play in the top flight, Year 2 is about trying to really push on and improving.

[The Algebraist]

Loath as I am to agree with some Random we are very much a work in progress. The defense we put out last night had only had a few days training together. I think there is a lot to like about us and we'll finish mid table.

3 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

The system we play is utterly useless at stifling teams who are pushing all-out and flooding forward. Doc persists with a lightweight three man midfield even when we are multiple goals to the good. It's way past the point of stubbornness and he really needs to swallow his pride, change it when we're ahead in the game, and look to completely kill it with extra bodies in midfield.

That said I do agree with this. We had done the playing part last night. If we're going to shut up shop we need to do it properly. 

[Brmiddleton4]

I like Tony doc but if there’s one big flaw he has it’s his game management when we are winning imo. That was awful that 2nd half probably the worst we have been all season and that includes the old firm games 

[Pens_Dark]

We were fantastic in that first half. Game plan executed to a tee, Hearts with most of the possession but doing nothing with it as we defended excellently. For as good as we were in the first half, we were utter turgid in the second. 

A few things that annoyed me last night: 

- As soon as Hearts changed their shape, Docherty should react to that. More midfielders for them leaving ours exposed. 

- Docherty should have identified pretty much straight away that Cameron wasn't going to cut it in that 2nd half for us. We needed physicality and someone to break their play up. Cameron for their first was pathetic. Stepping a couple yards off the boy and just saying 'on you go mate'

- Robinson should have been off at half time. Seems harsh to make changes at half time when you are 2-0 up but that was what we needed. If he comes off and we match them for players in midfield I think we do much better. Main didn't do much when he came on, but he couldn't they had the momentum with a goal and a penalty.

- There's little signs of naivety in this side, they are young so you can accept it, but it needs addressed. For example, chasing an equaliser in injury time we win a throw in near the corner flag. Prime opportunity for a long throw in to the box but Cameron decides to take the throw in 15 yards further back?

 

A lot of points dropped from winning positions now and it is a habit we need to shake very fast. A win against Livi on Saturday will make the pain of that one disappear fairly fast.

Edited January 24 by Pens_Dark

[Ludo*1]

Game to game, I'll absolutely criticise (and praise!) individuals and the manager. That's just the nature of being a supporter but I think context is important. I've read over the past 24 hours that people seem to think that people (and it might not be directed at me but I'm making a general point in any case) have 'turned' against the manager or are writing individuals off already. I don't think that's the case. I want to make it clear that I think Docherty has built the best team we've had since at least Hartley's top 6 side, but possibly even before that. His signings have largely been extremely impressive and the absolute bigger picture is all about survival. As football fans, we might get carried away and dream of a top 6 finish or European football, but the only standard that Docherty needs to match this season is keeping us up.

I thought it was worthwhile to do a little comparison to where Kilmarnock were this time last season:

10th: Kilmarnock - P19 W5 D4 L10 Goals Scored: 17 Goals Conceded:33 GD: -16 PTS: 19

Compared to us:

7th: Dundee - P19 W5 D7 L7 Goals Scored: 24 Goals Conceded: 31 PTS: 22

Important to note that we have games in hand (up to 3) on most sides in the league with only Aberdeen having played fewer.

We're currently 10 points clear of Livingston in bottom, with 2 games in hand. Kilmarnock were 4 points clear having played the same games. 

It's gonna be tight for that 11th place spot and it's absolutely not a negative to say we're in a relegation battle because that's where we should be but Docherty is outperforming McInnes on all metrics despite having less time in the job. The building blocks are there and I'm super excited going forward under his management. That doesn't change the fact that myself and others will have a heads gone when throwing away a 2 goal lead, but please don't think that's anyone turning against him or getting the pitchforks out or even just wanting to be negative for negative sake, because in the cold light of day, I don't think there's a Dee fan out there that doesn't think we've had a brilliant season thus far and long may it continue!

We're in the best spot we've been in decades - the building blocks that Docherty is laying is clear to see and there'll be many, many more bumps in the road.

It usually takes 10 wins to guarantee survival in this league and we're exactly where we should be win wise and more than ahead of where we should be draw wise!

[Shadow Play]

27 minutes ago, Pens_Dark said:

We were fantastic in that first half. Game plan executed to a tee, Hearts with most of the possession but doing nothing with it as we defended excellently. For as good as we were in the first half, we were utter turgid in the second. 

A few things that annoyed me last night: 

- As soon as Hearts changed their shape, Docherty should react to that. More midfielders for them leaving ours exposed. 

- Docherty should have identified pretty much straight away that Cameron wasn't going to cut it in that 2nd half for us. We needed physicality and someone to break their play up. Cameron for their first was pathetic. Stepping a couple yards off the boy and just saying 'on you go mate'

- Robinson should have been off at half time. Seems harsh to make changes at half time when you are 2-0 up but that was what we needed. If he comes off and we match them for players in midfield I think we do much better. Main didn't do much when he came on, but he couldn't they had the momentum with a goal and a penalty.

- There's little signs of naivety in this side, they are young so you can accept it, but it needs addressed. For example, chasing an equalised in injury time we win a throw in near the corner flag. Prime opportunity for a long throw in to the box but Cameron decides to take the throw in 15 yards further back?

 

A lot of points dropped from winning positions now and it is a habit we need to shake very fast. A win against Livi on Saturday will make the pain of that one disappear fairly fast.

I couldn’t agree more with you regarding Cameron.  Far too often when he tries to tackle someone he runs in at speed making it way too easy for the opposition player to drop a shoulder and change direction.  When that does happen he also seems to almost jog on the spot rather than immediately trying to work back.  Hearts first goal is a prime example.  

Until he can address that issue I just can’t see him being a 90 minutes man.

On the subject of defending has Costelloe got the heart for it?  Doesn’t look like he’s keen to put his head and body on the line for a defensive tackle, although to be fair to him it’s early days.

[Pens_Dark]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

For a manager 19 games into his first job, in the top flight, with a newly promoted side who needed completely rebuilt, Docherty is doing great.

Look at McInnes at Kilmarnock for an example of how he'll see you progressing. Year 1 is all about gaining a foothold in the division and making yourself more attractive to players wanting to play in the top flight, Year 2 is about trying to really push on and improving.

Yep totally agree. 

This season is as much about learning for Docherty as it is his players. He's been fantastic and it would be totally ridiculous to even question his position right now. 

That being said you can definitely criticise (constructively) some of the decisions he makes and teams he selects.

[Pens_Dark]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

I couldn’t agree more with you regarding Cameron.  Far too often when he tries to tackle someone he runs in at speed making it way too easy for the opposition player to drop a shoulder and change direction.  When that does happen he also seems to almost jog on the spot rather than immediately trying to work back.  Hearts first goal is a prime example.  

Until he can address that issue I just can’t see him being a 90 minutes man.

On the subject of defending has Costelloe got the heart for it?  Doesn’t look like he’s keen to put his head and body on the line for a defensive tackle, although to be fair to him it’s early days.

Yeah spot on mate RE Cameron. Too many times also he was easily shoved off the ball when we are trying to build momentum in the 2nd half.

I thought Costelloe was brilliant in the first half but as bad as he was good in the 2nd. Terrible defensive error for their 2nd (Beck was culpable of similar for a few goals). I think positional awareness can be coached in to him though as I thought Beck got better at it.

[Fifespud]

2 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

See when I see builders putting a house up and it's half way done in a fortnight, I think "Aye, it could be finished in two weeks but it might fall down today. Sure, they're doing a brilliant job and so much better than anyone anticipated but I think they could do more".

What a shitey way to look at Docherty and the players. Unless you give them stupid money then for the next while it's one step at a time. So far, they've skipped a couple of steps and there's another rebuild on the way in the summer.

Absolutely spot on. 

Can’t be arsed going into a whole critique of the game but ffs. We stumbled to promotion last year out of a very weak Championship, the improvement is clearly evident. 

[Liam899]

I love the Doc. We’re absolutely going places with him. This season is absolutely all about survival. Massive game against Livi. 

[Shadow Play]

14 minutes ago, Pens_Dark said:

Yeah spot on mate RE Cameron. Too many times also he was easily shoved off the ball when we are trying to build momentum in the 2nd half.

I thought Costelloe was brilliant in the first half but as bad as he was good in the 2nd. Terrible defensive error for their 2nd (Beck was culpable of similar for a few goals). I think positional awareness can be coached in to him though as I thought Beck got better at it.

Again, totally agree regarding Beck.  To begin with he often lost his man when the man was behind him at crosses.  Beck did indeed improve that part of his game and I’m sure that was in no small part due to the coaching he received.

 

[Fifespud]

44 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Again, totally agree regarding Beck.  To begin with he often lost his man when the man was behind him at crosses.  Beck did indeed improve that part of his game and I’m sure that was in no small part due to the coaching he received.

 

The Sainties game, IIRC, being an example of Beck not doing a job defensively early on. 

[Fifespud]

I’m wondering if the Mellon transfer is a budget thing, that is we need to get Rudden and Cammy off the payroll to accommodate him?

Ironically Cammy would probs have done a better job over the last 2 games. 

[Pens_Dark]

5 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

I’m wondering if the Mellon transfer is a budget thing, that is we need to get Rudden and Cammy off the payroll to accommodate him?

Ironically Cammy would probs have done a better job over the last 2 games. 

I don't think the budget and Mellon coming in is connected. Just a guess, but I think the benefit of this partnership will be that Burnley still pick up the players wages who come. 

I can see Mellon being announced this week at some point irrespective of Rudden finding a club or not. 

Edited January 24 by Pens_Dark

[K.T]

I thought Mellon had to sign a new deal with Burnley before he was loaned again. Has that been done yet?

[johnnydun]

42 minutes ago, K.T said:

I thought Mellon had to sign a new deal with Burnley before he was loaned again. Has that been done yet?

[johnnydun]

That's Cammy away to ICT, I'm told.