Support for 2nd independence referendum

[AUFC90]

It was never real independence on the table. Scotland (as was their plan) was still to be under the crown, tugging the forelock there, with legacy debt, a fiscal BOE/treasury satellite, politically controlled by Brussels.We had the vote and it was no, despite all the new Mrs Sturgeon fans here, and in truth I'm glad. With the oil price where it is, and the SNP's naive spending plans, we would have been bankrupt in ten years, and if you look at bankrupt Greece there is no money there for any nice big public sector pensions and state benefits, when the money runs out it runs out. The people said no.

Why do people such as yourself always compare a diverse Norygernt European economy to fucking Greece. You lose all credibility straight away with that shite.

The oil price the oil price. Most of the taxes we make off the oil industry aren't from selling oil. It's from selling technologies all over the world. It's the biggest employer in the UK and 3 of the UKs top 10 exports are oil related. Whiskey is in the top 10 too. There's 4 of the UKs to ten exports gone. How do you think the UKs current account deficit would've faired then.?

We have a much more diverse econonomy than the UK which is too reliant on moving non existent cash about in London. We have paid more tax per head every year since records began and we would be 14th in the world going on GDP per head. We are more than capable so excuse for not listening to your regurgitated shite about doomsday in Scotland. Heard it all before and it doesn't wash.

[AUFC90]

Barroso was not bothered about Catalonia as he was due to leave his post as President. He has been replaced by Donald Tusk, the former PM of Poland.

An independent Scotland would not be ejected from the EU, it would choose to leave under the terms of the Treaty. There is no provision to grant temporary membership, on any terms, in the Treaty. The Treaty would have to be amended and that would require the unanimous approval of all the Member States.

The 400k European nationals would have to leave Scotland if it left Britain and the EU. The Scottish government could grant them leave to remain (like non-EU nationals in Britain), give them visas or set up a new system. That's what independent sovereign countries do as they (unlike EU Members) have total control over their borders and immigration policies.

The EU does not receive any oil revenue from Britain. Those revenues are reflected in Britain's financial contribution to the EU. If Scotland leaves the Britain (and therefore the EU), the UK's financial contribution would be reduced slightly. However, the EU would reflect the oil revenues in negotiating iScotland's financial contribution to its budget.

Away and boil your head. We've been in the EU longer than most. We've paid into it longer than most and we've been EU citizen's longer than most. East Germany got in a matter of months despite not being a previous member and despite have a terrible economy and atrocious infrastructure. If you genuinely think we'd have been sitting on our hands for 2 years waiting for Brussels to agree to our membership then you're deluded. They want Ukraine ffs

[sparky88]

Like almost all no voters your reason for voting no is so farcically stupid you really ought to be disenfranchised.

^^^didnt get what he wanted for Xmas type post

[Bishop Briggs]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. The UKs broad shoulders were nowhere to be seen when push came to shove.

Barclays -600bn

RBS- 300bn

HBOS - hundreds of billions.

God bless America.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4895234

And do you know why they did it ? Because like I said earlier, in this world of global finance, no one is truly independent. .

You're argument is nonsense that a country can't be independent whilst sharing a currency. When did Ireland become independent ? I could've sworn it was the early 20th century rather than the sixties when their currency arrangement with the UK finally ended. The UK was even kind enough to print their notes.

You are also conflating bank bailouts with government bailouts. Barclays and RBS have big operations in the US. The Barclays debt, now repaid, arose from its acquisition of Lehman Brothers.

My argument is that a truly independent and sovereign country must have its own currency. The Irish could not have its own independent monetary policy whilst the Bank of England was its Central Bank.

[Bishop Briggs]

Away and boil your head. We've been in the EU longer than most. We've paid into it longer than most and we've been EU citizen's longer than most. East Germany got in a matter of months despite not being a previous member and despite have a terrible economy and atrocious infrastructure. If you genuinely think we'd have been sitting on our hands for 2 years waiting for Brussels to agree to our membership then you're deluded. They want Ukraine ffs

It's the UK that is the Member State and financial contributor. The money comes from the Treasury in London, not Holyrood or the banks' HQs in Edinburgh. iScotland would not be eligible for the UK's current rebate.

East Germany was absorbed by West Germany which was an existing Member State. It had the financial strength to modernise the East's economy and infrastructure. The Germans are, and always have been, the most influential Member State in the EU.

Ukraine is of strategic value to the EU which needs Russian oil and gas.

ETA - Time to focus on the football now. Sadly, it will have to Chick Dung & Co this afternoon. It's not much fun being stuck at home with a very heavy cold.

[AUFC90]

You are also conflating bank bailouts with government bailouts. Barclays and RBS have big operations in the US. The Barclays debt, now repaid, arose from its acquisition of Lehman Brothers.

My argument is that a truly independent and sovereign country must have its own currency. The Irish could not have its own independent monetary policy whilst the Bank of England was its Central Bank.

It was bank bailouts mate.

" The UK Government bail out of RBS and HBOS amounted to £65bn. That's a lot of money, but the US Federal Reserve made emergency loans available to RBS of £285bn and to HBOS of £115bn. The US bailed out these UK banks too, in the same way as Scottish taxpayers contributed to liquidity support for international banks based in London (including American ones)."

The US bailed us out. Whether you choose to believe it is neither here nor there.

When did Ireland become an independent country ?

[FuzzyAffro]

It's the UK that is the Member State and financial contributor. The money comes from the Treasury in London, not Holyrood or the banks' HQs in Edinburgh. iScotland would not be eligible for the UK's current rebate.

East Germany was absorbed by West Germany which was an existing Member State. It had the financial strength to modernise the East's economy and infrastructure. The Germans are, and always have been, the most influential Member State in the EU.

Ukraine is of strategic value to the EU which needs Russian oil and gas.

ETA - Time to focus on the football now. Sadly, it will have to Chick Dung & Co this afternoon. It's not much fun being stuck at home with a very heavy cold.

And Scotland contributes to the UK's finances meaning Scotland has been contributing to the EU for over forty years.

So they need oil and gas from Ukraine but not from Scotland yeah?

Another point my tutor made is the EU is inherently expansionist. Another reason it wouldn't want to lose Scotland.

Btw bailouts -

http://www.newstatesman.com/2010/12/financial-british-money-fed

US Federal Reserve contributed £640 billion to bailout UK banks. It's a simple fact. Much more than the UK govt provided.

[AUFC90]

It's the UK that is the Member State and financial contributor. The money comes from the Treasury in London, not Holyrood or the banks' HQs in Edinburgh. iScotland would not be eligible for the UK's current rebate.

East Germany was absorbed by West Germany which was an existing Member State. It had the financial strength to modernise the East's economy and infrastructure. The Germans are, and always have been, the most influential Member State in the EU.

Ukraine is of strategic value to the EU which needs Russian oil and gas.

ETA - Time to focus on the football now. Sadly, it will have to Chick Dung & Co this afternoon. It's not much fun being stuck at home with a very heavy cold.

So what about Poland, Czech Republic and the various other nonentities that were allowed in. Better economoy than Scotland ? Certainly not. You're spluttering the establishment diatribe and no one is fooled.

" An independent Scotland could expect to become a member of the European Union within 18 months of a yes vote, according to a senior EU negotiator.

Graham Avery, the European Commission's honorary director general, said the UK government's position on Scotland in Europe was "perplexing" and "absurd".

He also told a Holyrood committee the country could not be compelled to join the euro or Schengen travel area.

But pro-Union MSPs said Mr Avery's opinions had already been "ruled out".

Mr Avery, who was appearing before the European and External Relations Committee, negotiated the UK's entry into the European Community in the 1970s and wrote the membership applications of 14 countries.

He said voters should dismiss the UK government's anti-independence "tactics" and the "obscure" statements of European leaders which suggest and independent Scotland would face a difficult journey to EU membership.

'Reasonable solution'

He added: "I consider, along with Sir David Edward, that Article 48 would be applicable and I confidently predict that in the event of a yes vote the EU will consider whether to use it.

"If and when the result of the referendum is in favour of independence then it seems to me perfectly clear that the Westminster government and Whitehall machine will move into action very smartly to find a reasonable solution."

In its White Paper on independence, launched in November, the Scottish government said the country would look to gain membership through Article 48 of the Treaty of the European Union.

The UK government and pro-Union Better Together campaign have consistently rejected the claim that Scotland would get "accelerated" entry into the EU.

Last week, three eminent lawyers also challenged the SNP's claim, but were dismissed by former European Court judge Sir David Edward, who said the UK would have an "obligation" to secure Scotland's continuing membership, a view echoed by Mr Avery.

European Council president Herman van Rompuy and European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso have previously said the EU treaties would not apply to any part of a member state that becomes independent from another.

Asked about these interventions, Mr Avery described what they had said as "not the whole truth".

He added that Scotland would not need to opt-out of the euro or the Schengen passport-free travel area because it could not be compelled to join them. "

Perplexing and absurd indeed.

[FuzzyAffro]

And that's the scale of the lies.

Along with oil being worth £600 million a year and no currency union. All of it utter lies.

[Baxter Parp]

Barroso was not bothered about Catalonia as he was due to leave his post as President. He has been replaced by Donald Tusk, the former PM of Poland.

An independent Scotland would not be ejected from the EU, it would choose to leave under the terms of the Treaty. There is no provision to grant temporary membership, on any terms, in the Treaty. The Treaty would have to be amended and that would require the unanimous approval of all the Member States.

The 400k European nationals would have to leave Scotland if it left Britain and the EU. The Scottish government could grant them leave to remain (like non-EU nationals in Britain), give them visas or set up a new system. That's what independent sovereign countries do as they (unlike EU Members) have total control over their borders and immigration policies.

The EU does not receive any oil revenue from Britain. Those revenues are reflected in Britain's financial contribution to the EU. If Scotland leaves the Britain (and therefore the EU), the UK's financial contribution would be reduced slightly. However, the EU would reflect the oil revenues in negotiating iScotland's financial contribution to its budget.

So much misinformation.

Barroso is worried about Catalonia because he's a right-wing Spanish politician, not because he was EU President.

Scots are EU citizens and there is no mechanism to strip any EU citizen of their citizenship.

Why the hell would Scotland chose to leave the EU?

[FuzzyAffro]

Barroso is Portugese tbf. He was PM of Portugal.

Though you are correct in everything else you say.

[Baxter Parp]

Barroso is Portugese tbf. He was PM of Portugal.

Though you are correct in everything else you say.

Right enough, he's a member of the right-wing European People's Party which includes the Spanish People's Party, dead set against Catalonian independence.

[FuzzyAffro]

Exactly, and was under pressure from Spain and the UK too.

[AUFC90]

He also wanted the job at NATO. Cameron put a word in for him but he didn't get it. f**k him

[AUFC90]

Whereas the party who runs Denmark and were under no such pressure said that we would be welcome with open arms and it wouldn't take long at all. They even finished with an example saying that if Norway wanted to they'd get into the EU tomorrow and so would Scotland.

[FuzzyAffro]

The Irish government said they were staying totally neutral on the issue, but had been asked to publicly oppose it by the UK govt.

[Bishop Briggs]

So much misinformation.

Barroso is worried about Catalonia because he's a right-wing Spanish politician, not because he was EU President.

Scots are EU citizens and there is no mechanism to strip any EU citizen of their citizenship.

Why the hell would Scotland chose to leave the EU?

Misinformation? Barroso, as others pointed out earlier, is Portuguese.

There are mechanisms to "strip" EU citizens of their citizenship - withdrawal under Article 50 or to secede from aMember State.

Scotland could choose to leave the EU to regain control of its laws, courts, borders, economy, trade, fisheries and agriculture.

The Norwegians and Swiss chose to join EFTA instead. They are in the Single Market and have freedom of movement within the EU too. But their budget contribution is much lower than if they were Member States.

Do you want Scots to decide, via the ballot box, to choose our law makers in Holyrood? Or would you rather have unelected Commissioners in Brussels, MEPs in Strasbourg or bankers in Frankfurt (ECB) to tell us what to do?

[AUFC90]

Misinformation? Barroso, as others pointed out earlier, is Portuguese.

There are mechanisms to "strip" EU citizens of their citizenship - withdrawal under Article 50 or to secede from aMember State.

Scotland could choose to leave the EU to regain control of its laws, courts, borders, economy, trade, fisheries and agriculture.

The Norwegians and Swiss chose to join EFTA instead. They are in the Single Market and have freedom of movement within the EU too. But their budget contribution is much lower than if they were Member States.

Do you want Scots to decide, via the ballot box, to choose our law makers in Holyrood? Or would you rather have unelected Commissioners in Brussels, MEPs in Strasbourg or bankers in Frankfurt (ECB) to tell us what to do?

I voted yes to get rid of 600 MP troughers and 1000 Lord troughers. Did you ?

[pandarilla]

Tbh mate I couldn't really give a f**k. The referendum was six months ago and another one is a minimum of almost five years away probably more. Now is the time for recriminations and pointing out how utterly stupid the position taken by almost all no voters was.

If and when there is another one I will be all nice and pretend to respect them., but right now I and many other yes voters have three years of bitterness stored up therefore I don't really care if you think I'm playing nice or not.

You think that its abut playing nice? Or being pals on the internet? Stop being so fucking stupid and think about it for a wee second.

This kind of nonsense actually damages the chances of winning a future referendum. Shouting at folk and telling them how stupid they are never ever changes their mind. If anything it makes them more entrenched and less likely to be won round to your point of view. Any non-political, neutral observer reading this will think that you're a cock and therefore be less likely to turn towards the independence argument.

There is a way to put across the arguments and point out the inaccuracies and lies without being a dick.

But go ahead - you're not just making yourself look bad - you're tarring all Yes voters.

[Granny Danger]

You think that its abut playing nice? Or being pals on the internet? Stop being so fucking stupid and think about it for a wee second.

This kind of nonsense actually damages the chances of winning a future referendum. Shouting at folk and telling them how stupid they are never ever changes their mind. If anything it makes them more entrenched and less likely to be won round to your point of view. Any non-political, neutral observer reading this will think that you're a cock and therefore be less likely to turn towards the independence argument.

There is a way to put across the arguments and point out the inaccuracies and lies without being a dick.

But go ahead - you're not just making yourself look bad - you're tarring all Yes voters.

I disagree with that for the simple reason that anyone who takes anything the FuzzyAffro guy says seriously is an idiot. FuzzyAffro is a total arsehole who is trying to ruin every thread on the politics forum and those who engage with him are just encouraging this.