Hartley and Neil

[dingdong1929]

Two completely contrasting approaches done successfully. I like Neil's more.

I like a trusty labrador who has been with you from the start and is mostly dependable, might randomly go off on one but whom you can trust. That's not like the feline who will seduce you and pretend to love you because it suits, before sodding off to the next owner that takes its fancy.

My cat left me ten months ago

So you're calling Hartley a pussy.

[banana]

Well putting your obvious bias aside for a bit isn't it the mark of a good manager to get the right signings in on the budget available? How many have noised that up in the past? He's gone for young untested (at this level) players in McGinn, Konrad, Stewart and Bain combined them with more senior players who probably had a question mark over them such as Harkins, McPake and McGowan. By and large it has worked well. The only players who the jury is still out on is Tankulic and Roberts. I don't know if Neil or Hartley is the better manager but all I know is that i'm glad to have Hartley at our club

I can only go by highlights and from how both teams have performed against United. Certainly against United, none of those Dundee players stood out (except a horrendous Konrad and anonymous Harkins) and United have gone 5-1 over two games, hitting the woodwork three times and forcing your team into two red cards. On the other hand, Hamilton have looked good and progressive every time I've seen them, no more so than at Tannadice where they were perhaps unfortunate not to get the 3 points.

Granted Hartley's doing well with the players he's identified. Neil has largely had to make do with what he's got, and is doing better. It's pretty clear so far which is the more impressive, time will tell which has the brighter future in the game.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

I can only go by highlights and from how both teams have performed against United. Certainly against United, none of those Dundee players stood out (except a horrendous Konrad and anonymous Harkins) and United have gone 5-1 over two games, hitting the woodwork three times and forcing your team into two red cards. On the other hand, Hamilton have looked good and progressive every time I've seen them, no more so than at Tannadice where they were perhaps unfortunate not to get the 3 points.

Granted Hartley's doing well with the players he's identified. Neil has largely had to make do with what he's got, and is doing better. It's pretty clear so far which is the more impressive, time will tell which has the brighter future in the game.

Very interesting.

[Ludo*1]

Has to be said, this incident is a pretty major blot on Neil's record as he spectacularly blew Hamilton's title chances on the penultimate game. Pretty sure there were Hamilton fans on their forum wanting him to go after this. Link.

Ironically, if there's a 'stain' on Hartley's management career, it could be argued it also came against Dumbarton as his Alloa team were pumped and he resigned in a bit of a hissy. Led to him being more than a bit disrespectful to Ian Murray's side after we'd won the league. Think there might be a more long lasting rivalry so to speak between them two than there will be between Neil and Hartley.

[craigkillie]

I could talk about this for a while as I'm a right boring b*****d and have vast experience of Football Manager so feel pretty qualified to talk on this subject.

Where to start - Alex Neil has done a wonderful job with the resources at his disposal. He has got average players playing out of their skin, brought through a clutch of promising youngsters and added real quality to the squad for next to nothing. He has benefited from learning his trade at one club and coming through the ranks properly - in my opinion not enough managers do this these days. This has allowed him to put his stamp on these players as they have come through the ranks and they are a well drilled team with a good understanding as a result. The Hamilton board should be commended for this as well - annoyingly well run wee club.

Personally I feel tactically he is not as good as PH, He has one system that he sticks to rigidly and there is no plan B for me. This will probably manifest itself as the season goes on and the more tactically astute managers (not Tommy Craig) work out the game plan and begin to combat it. What cannot be faulted though is the teamwork, work ethic and fitness of his teams - I think they have been at it again this year but the number of late winners/equalisers Hamilton pulled out last season was ridiculous. He has built his squad from the Youth team up and augmented it with experience and quality where required. It's been a labour of love and he's been granted the opportunity to do that by the Hamilton board.

Like most Dees I am happy to say Hartley is the best manager we have had in my lifetime. There is an argument that in comparison to Neil he has a far greater pool of resources to draw from and of course that is the case - we are a much larger club than Hamilton in terms of fan base etc. However rather than being given time to build and stamp his mark on the team a' la' Neil. He was thrown in to a floundering team and given the expectation that he win the league immediately.He did it. It wasn't pretty and it was immediately apparent to him that the players we had couldn't play the way he wanted. He changed it from his usual style and we limped over the line.

He has since overseen a mass clearout of personnel and a mass influx of "his" players. He had a pre-season to gel the team and to be fair the start we had to the season is far better than certainly I expected. It's no co-incidence that this approach was taken - Alloa fans are quick to point out that his first act with them was to sweep the decks and surround himself with players he wanted. He has now achieved 3 promotions in his short career, 2 at a part time club and 1 with a team that had the expectation of being champions but the historic inability to push over the line. He has dealt with the pressure admirably. Tactically he plays nice, flowing football but has no qualms in changing it when required. He is not the finished article - he got it horribly wrong against Utd at Dens (possibly even underestimating the occasion) but the encouraging thing was the way he learned from that and we dominated them the following match at Tannadice (dodgy red card aside we potentially could have won that game)

Hartley has already been linked with a big job down south and has shown he can achieve success and that he can transfer that success wherever he goes. Neil probably needs to prove he can do it somewhere else (maybe a larger SPL team) before he would be considered for the "bigger" jobs.

I'd hazard a guess that if the Celtic job came up tomorrow Hartley would be in the bookies running - Alex Neil wouldn't and I think thats a fair reflection on where their careers are. I think Hartley will go on to bigger things than Neil in his career so for that reason I think Hartley edges it. Come seasons end if Hamilton finish above Dundee (which is a very real possibility) then I'd happily admit Alex Neil won that battle but Hartley will win the war.

Despite the rivalry which has sprung up between Dundee and Hamilton its good to see 2 young Scottish managers doing well and rocking the established order for now. If Hartley was to move on I'd happily see Alex Neil at Dens and I'm sure if Hamilton fans were honest they would take Hartley as well if Neil were to move on.

Good post, and I agree about Hartley having more tactical flexibiliy and also having proved himself in more than one place.

However, I think the thing about being linked with other jobs and also being a candidate for a hypothetical Celtic job has a lot to do with him having a higher profile playing career. He's a former Celtic player, so his name would always be thrown into the hat if the job became available.

[Johnnie Scobie]

I can only go by highlights and from how both teams have performed against United. Certainly against United, none of those Dundee players stood out (except a horrendous Konrad and anonymous Harkins) and United have gone 5-1 over two games, hitting the woodwork three times and forcing your team into two red cards. On the other hand, Hamilton have looked good and progressive every time I've seen them, no more so than at Tannadice where they were perhaps unfortunate not to get the 3 points.

Granted Hartley's doing well with the players he's identified. Neil has largely had to make do with what he's got, and is doing better. It's pretty clear so far which is the more impressive, time will tell which has the brighter future in the game.

My response was made to the inference in your post that Hartley had only done relatively well because he had been able to update the squad whereas Neil had to work, more or less, with the same players as he had in the Championship. My point was that identifying and bringing in a player, especially one that has been disregarded by other teams in the same market, and then getting him to perform to his potential is a valuable managerial ability. If on the other hand the players are as mediocre as you make out having seen them twice the he must be a tactical genius to have gotten them to a mid table position so far

[banana]

Very interesting.

Cheers, brah

My response was made to the inference in your post that Hartley had only done relatively well because he had been able to update the squad whereas Neil had to work, more or less, with the same players as he had in the Championship. My point was that identifying and bringing in a player, especially one that has been disregarded by other teams in the same market, and then getting him to perform to his potential is a valuable managerial ability. If on the other hand the players are as mediocre as you make out having seen them twice the he must be a tactical genius to have gotten them to a mid table position so far

I haven't seen them twice, I've seen them in most of the highlights against other teams and twice against United (once for Accies). Hartley's doing well whatever the players and their previous. Neil's more impressive so far, that's all.

[ShedruleFTD83]

Next season will be a better test of their respective managerial abilities, for now am delighted that both promoted clubs are getting the SPL teams telt.

Jut not in the city... as of yet

[ShedruleFTD83]

Obviously a bit biased but I think the very fact that we have been consistently in the top 4, including leading the way for a fair amount of time, since the second game of the season makes Neil stand out more.

With basically the same squad we had throughout last season we've played some exceptional football and far surpassed everyone's expectations. Hartley and Dundee have done this as well to be fair, but not to the same extent and by completely revamping their squad.

I think both managers have to take great credit for what they've achieved, just two very different styles. There's a long way to go this season and who knows, Dundee might even overtake us eventually. Right now though, Neil wins out

Fair post, i think Neil just now because what Hamilton have done so far has been a surprise and above what most would have expected, what Hartley has done so far at Dundee has not been for me anyway, they are roughly where i expected they would be this season all things considered

[accies1874]

Has to be said, this incident is a pretty major blot on Neil's record as he spectacularly blew Hamilton's title chances on the penultimate game. Pretty sure there were Hamilton fans on their forum wanting him to go after this. Link.

Ironically, if there's a 'stain' on Hartley's management career, it could be argued it also came against Dumbarton as his Alloa team were pumped and he resigned in a bit of a hissy. Led to him being more than a bit disrespectful to Ian Murray's side after we'd won the league. Think there might be a more long lasting rivalry so to speak between them two than there will be between Neil and Hartley.

Yip, there sure was. Someone even started a thread about it. He embarrassed himself and the club that day but he's done an unbelievable job so far.

Hartleys a fud in my opinion but he's also done a very good job - 3 promotions in a row and top 6 by November is a pretty good achievement.

[K.T]

I have a lot of time for Alex Neil after he lost the plot and got sent off against Dumbarton, resulting in a 4-1 pumping and handing the title to Hartley.

Alex Neil loves Dundee.

[d_t_b]

I have a lot of time for Alex Neil after he lost the plot and got sent off against Dumbarton, resulting in a 4-1 pumping and handing the title to Hartley.

Alex Neil loves Dundee.

I would be happy for him to do it all over again if it meant another day like Easter Road

[Nizzy]

Certainly against United, none of those Dundee players stood out...except...anonymous Harkins

How does that work?

[Dee Man]

Alex Neil is a dick. Tried to wipe out Martin Boyle in a fucking development league game a few weeks back but fortunately Boyler had already read the fax Neil had sent him and ended up making him look like a fud sliding along the halfway line while Biscuits was almost at the corner flag.

[dundeefc1988]

Alex Neil is a dick. Tried to wipe out Martin Boyle in a fucking development league game a few weeks back but fortunately Boyler had already read the fax Neil had sent him and ended up making him look like a fud sliding along the halfway line while Biscuits was almost at the corner flag.

Oh memories

[eindhovendee]

I've no idea who is better but I wouldn't want to swap Hartley for anybody in Scotland right now.

[Accies1]

I think people forget that Alex Neil is still only 33. How many managers in history have gained a good reputation at that age?

I think it's fair to say that Alex Neil's tactics are probably singular but I think you'd be hard pushed to find a manager that can get as much out of a group of players as Neil has managed to do. The desire and fight he's installed into the mindset of our team is why I was certain we'd stay up this season (granted I didn't expect things to be as good as they are).

With Neil too his signings overall have been excellent and seems to have an eye for a good player (Andreu, Jesus, McGovern, Scotland) and he seems to improve youngsters with ease, I'm sure most Accies fans would agree with me that before Neil took over we'd have happily have seen Ali Crawford, Grant Gillespie and even Ziggy Gordon leave the club but now they're arguably our three most important players and I think that is where Neil deserves most of his plaudits.

I think Hartley's an excellent manager too and when Billy Reid left I wanted us to try and bring him in.

Ultimately both managers made their names at Accies therefore Accies > Dundee.

[K.T]

I think people forget that Alex Neil is still only 33.

.... What?

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

.... What?

The pseudo hard man must have had a tough life.

[Accies1]

.... What?

Frightening, I know!

I'm sure he was 23/24 when he signed for us and he looked well into his forties then.