League Vacancies

[Burnie_man]

Here is the deal and this is the major bone of contention, you can only go with the clubs that apply. I am thinking that the juniors are happy being a regional set up with smaller regional set ups feeding into a league that is split based on an east/west split (throwing out the north juniors for a minute).

That is their right and if this is what they want then that is great, but really has no connection with the SFA or the professional game (apart from office space being close and SFA supplying referees and server space on their web portal)

The SFA are right in setting the rules within their juristiction, I hope that Junior clubs get their licensing sorted prior to 2016 if they choose to do so because after that they may face the decision whether to license and have to support the LFL (and eventually the entry to the SFA cup will be based on this too, hasn't happened yet but we can all see this is where that is going)

I am all for Junior football, what I am not for is the dinosaur attitude (which I don't see in you burnie) towards keeping the commitees alive.

You missed what I meant there so please allow me to explain. When I talk of "own wee world" I meant in terms of relevance to the bigger picture, the pyramid train has left the station and in order to get on the "level 5 train" there are few stops to get on, beyond that there is no absolutes on where tehy would enter.

The HFL were given the choice to accept level 5 on the pyramid or the SFA would have made a new Highland league with clubs having to apply for their status, they majority voted for it, including ironically Brora.

OK, I go back to my earlier post from this afternoon.

"The Juniors" are not one big voting block, all with the same opinions, there are many progressive clubs as I highlighted, indeed there were between 25-30 who expressed an interest in a Pyramid (SJFA survey) and many more who agreed with the concept.

In light of that, why are we where we are now with no Junior club in the LL?

[MacGafraidh]

OK, I go back to my earlier post from this afternoon.

"The Juniors" are not one big voting block, all with the same opinions, there are many progressive clubs as I highlighted, indeed there were between 25-30 who expressed an interest in a Pyramid (SJFA survey) and many more who agreed with the concept.

In light of that, why are we where we are now with no Junior club in the LL?

There is a world of difference between "being behind it in principle" and "actually doing it".

You ask the question why are we where we are now then? (paraphrase, one hopes you don't mind) and I think the fault lies with both parties.

THE SFA/SPFL - Knew what they wanted and gave a much more elevated timescale than what the Juniors were happy with, I doubt anyone will dispute those facts, personally I think it is to the detriment of the LFL and the feeder system as a whole as you annoyed the powers that be at the head of the catchment grade you should have been looking to get in this new league.

In my view if this had been started off better, had a consultation that ALL PARTIES were invited to, Chairmen of the HFL, EOS, SOS and the SJFL committee members with an all inclusive approach from the get-go then this car crash could have been avoided, if the Juniors didn't participate then it was their choice having all the facts.

That would have resulted in a level 5 with a better representation of the type of clubs that should be participating in level 5. (In my view a better situation than forming a league, and hoping the juniors follow) I am sure you would agree then there would be no "integrety of the league" questions.

The SJFL - (and possibly the member clubs negotiating their own deals) After the "horse was bolted" communication was never (or at least never seemed to be) towards finding an olive branch. We are now nearly 2 years down the line, the first deadline approaching for licensing (which in my opinion will make it harder for SJFL clubs to enter at L5 or L6) and a minimal take up on the basic criteria for entering the league.

So in my view the fault is at both doors, the SPFL didnt start well and since then it has not got any better. In my view the Juniors should be allowed in, should they wish to participate, some do, some don't, but if they do then they have to realize that it leads to national football if they are as successful as I believe they would be. In that sense I think that is WHY it started badly as member clubs may not do as well as the Junior counterparts.

[RabidAl]

You missed the bit about the pyramid being at the wrong tier of the game to make it appealing enough for the best non-leaguers to apply.

Tier 4 is too low to be playing in national leagues.

[cmontheloknow]

Issue with SJFA not addressed here afaik is what happens to a team that realises Lowland League is not for them - SJFA consider the LL to be parallel or below them and would likely ask a team coming into the SJFA from it to start at the bottom. That is highly unsatisfactory, as yet unresolved and unworkable. Until that is sorted once and for all, no Junior club of any standing can apply.

The Junior world is not only prehistoric but also vindictive - I'd assume any SJFA AGM vote on the matter to be one that sticks it to those daring to look elsewhere.

[MacGafraidh]

Al - as we are copying England tier 4 will remain national cause thats what they do south of the border.

know - that is the situation as I see it, unless they apply this year they will need to apply for the LFL if a vacancy exists, if not it would be at the highest league that has a vacancy. Which is why I fear the Juniors will never be in as they will not wish to "drop down a level" to be in the national feeder system.

personally, it could have been done so much better!

[cmontheloknow]

Al - as we are copying England tier 4 will remain national cause thats what they do south of the border.

know - that is the situation as I see it, unless they apply this year they will need to apply for the LFL if a vacancy exists, if not it would be at the highest league that has a vacancy. Which is why I fear the Juniors will never be in as they will not wish to "drop down a level" to be in the national feeder system.

personally, it could have been done so much better!

But the issue I'm highlighting is that IF Pollok got in then found it not a good move, to go back to the SJFA would mean starting in its 4th tier. In moving 'up', they would end up dropping down 4 divisions coming 'down'.

THAT will dissuade any club currently in the upper levels from applying until the day it is specified in clear black and white that they'd go down into the Junior top flight.

[Burnie_man]

There is a world of difference between "being behind it in principle" and "actually doing it".

You ask the question why are we where we are now then? (paraphrase, one hopes you don't mind) and I think the fault lies with both parties.

THE SFA/SPFL - Knew what they wanted and gave a much more elevated timescale than what the Juniors were happy with, I doubt anyone will dispute those facts, personally I think it is to the detriment of the LFL and the feeder system as a whole as you annoyed the powers that be at the head of the catchment grade you should have been looking to get in this new league.

In my view if this had been started off better, had a consultation that ALL PARTIES were invited to, Chairmen of the HFL, EOS, SOS and the SJFL committee members with an all inclusive approach from the get-go then this car crash could have been avoided, if the Juniors didn't participate then it was their choice having all the facts.

That would have resulted in a level 5 with a better representation of the type of clubs that should be participating in level 5. (In my view a better situation than forming a league, and hoping the juniors follow) I am sure you would agree then there would be no "integrety of the league" questions.

The SJFL - (and possibly the member clubs negotiating their own deals) After the "horse was bolted" communication was never (or at least never seemed to be) towards finding an olive branch. We are now nearly 2 years down the line, the first deadline approaching for licensing (which in my opinion will make it harder for SJFL clubs to enter at L5 or L6) and a minimal take up on the basic criteria for entering the league.

So in my view the fault is at both doors, the SPFL didnt start well and since then it has not got any better. In my view the Juniors should be allowed in, should they wish to participate, some do, some don't, but if they do then they have to realize that it leads to national football if they are as successful as I believe they would be. In that sense I think that is WHY it started badly as member clubs may not do as well as the Junior counterparts.

All fair enough and I agree blame lies in both "camps".

The SFA made the mistake of letting the anti-Pyramid SJFA disseminate information to its member clubs instead of the SFA taking the pro-active approach and engaging directly.

Let's remember, Junior clubs got 4-5 weeks notice of the formation of the LL, and information was contained in something like 3 or 4 A4 sheets of papers. Hardly selling the concept, although I suspect more than a few EoSFL clubs were happy with that.

It's too far gone now, the only way to rectify it is to either admit mistakes were made and start again, or somehow get a combined West/East Junior Superleague to sit alongside LL.

[Burnie_man]

But the issue I'm highlighting is that IF Pollok got in then found it not a good move, to go back to the SJFA would mean starting in its 4th tier. In moving 'up', they would end up dropping down 4 divisions coming 'down'.

THAT will dissuade any club currently in the upper levels from applying until the day it is specified in clear black and white that they'd go down into the Junior top flight.

I doubt it is in the interests of the SJFA to clarify the position.....

[cmontheloknow]

I doubt it is in the interests of the SJFA to clarify the position.....

Exactly and why there will be no Junior clubs (with sense) from the top end thinking of applying.

As Elvis crooned "only fools rush in".

[Cicero]

Exactly and why there will be no Junior clubs (with sense) from the top end thinking of applying.

As Elvis crooned "only fools rush in".

This one is more apt from Elvis as far as the juniors are concerned.

"We're caught in a trap

I can't walk out"

[heedthebaa]

I spoke to a Civil Service committee member this season and they were hopeful of having the criteria met

[cmontheloknow]

This one is more apt from Elvis as far as the juniors are concerned.

"We're caught in a trap

I can't walk out"

And most reps have suspicious minds about any drastic change anyway!

[WaffenThinMint]

Issue with SJFA not addressed here afaik is what happens to a team that realises Lowland League is not for them - SJFA consider the LL to be parallel or below them and would likely ask a team coming into the SJFA from it to start at the bottom. That is highly unsatisfactory, as yet unresolved and unworkable. Until that is sorted once and for all, no Junior club of any standing can apply.

The Junior world is not only prehistoric but also vindictive - I'd assume any SJFA AGM vote on the matter to be one that sticks it to those daring to look elsewhere.

Well said.

Unless any Junior club applying had a guarantee of acceptance sotto voce from enough LL clubs, or like those at the bottom of the regionals simply with nothing to lose, it's a rash club that threw its hat in the ring. That said, I don't think even the most neanderthal of the Juniors would attempt reprisals against the likes of Talbot, Medda or Rose were they to apply - right now the SJFA needs them more than they need the SJFA.

[HTG]

Interesting discussion. I wish to goodness the SFA had managed their responsibilities properly. I won't add too much more. Burnie and Comeontheloknow have covered most of my thoughts. I understand why those defending the LL in its current guise (and likely future guise ) are doing so. But nobody who has Scottish football's best interests at heart can be happy that such a horrendous impasse has been reached. Whilst i completely understand the "we can only consider those who apply" and "we can't wait forever", the more kids teams or teams of French students who are accepted the less attractive it becomes. It's a repeating cycle which pulls the game further apart. It needs grabbed by the scruff of the neck and sorted. No point saying that it is sorted - it isn't. But i understand that it is what it is and for as long as it is rudderless it will be what it is.

[parsforlife]

Nobody can argue this is ideal, but I find it difficult to believe the current situation should be changed to suit junior clubs, when it's their own bloody organisation that has to take the vast majority of the blame for the issues with the current system.

The only acceptable solution for me is if we see a situation where the lowland region has 30 + licensed clubs and the highland region remaining with 20ish, if that happens arguments could be made for the lowland area to get a 2nd feeder and split into east and west, if that happens juniors may be happier becoming feeder leagues into those regions.

Other wise with a likely full LL after this summer the only option beyond junior clubs entering EoS or SoS leagues(highly unlikely) is for the sjfa to pick up the phone and talk about merging with those leagues( seriously this should of happened decades ago, how hard is it to talk to each other guys?)

[mvch]

Kids teams what the hell are you talking about you've lost me there

[HTG]

Kids teams what the hell are you talking about you've lost me there

When BSC applied, did they have an adult team? What does the name Cumbernauld Colts imply to you? Does AM Soccer have an adult team?

By all means bring them all in. As Burnie said, there's no problem for these lads. If they can't afford the cost of ground share they can always just chuck it and nobody will fret because they don't form part of a community anyway. If Bo'ness for example tried to take that approach they'd lose a massive amount of community goodwill if they had to up sticks and groundshare at the Falkirk Stadium.

Nobody among the more progressive junior support on here is arguing that the position taken by the SJFA has been helpful. But there has been a complete lack of leadership from Hampden and the result is a threat of complete polarisation of the non league game. That really irks me. But I see no immediate solution so we'll all just have to get on with it. The LL won't be the league it could have been and the Juniors will continue to slowly strangle themselves. Lose/Lose really.

[LongTimeLurker]

Maybe worth pointing out that it is Cumbernauld Colts rather than Clyde that are the primary tenants at Broadwood.

[LongTimeLurker]

From another thread on this subforum:

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/221702-edinburgh-city-future-long-term/#entry9345478

Good that the Wanderers are going for it. Really need another South team in the LL

So looks like the five applicants, if there are five, are probably:

Civil Service Strollers

St Cuthberts Wanderers

Cumbernauld Colts

Edusport Academy

AMsoccer

[newcastle broon]

From another thread on this subforum:

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/221702-edinburgh-city-future-long-term/#entry9345478

Good that the Wanderers are going for it. Really need another South team in the LL

So looks like the five applicants, if there are five, are probably:

Civil Service Strollers

St Cuthberts Wanderers

Cumbernauld Colts

Edusport Academy

AMsoccer

So from that list and what the junior critics have said looks like Strollers and Wanderers with decades of history are a shoe in.

What's changed your mind LTL that it's good St.Cuthberts have went for it given at one point you were dead against the old eosfl and sosfl teams forming a LL.