Antlion Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I don't think concerns at the disgraceful anti democratic nature of the EU should be dismissed by incorrect whataboutery. Anyone who doesn't have grave concerns about the EU just isn't thinking about it enough. That isn't to say these outweigh the reasons to stay, but there really does need to be a massive re evaluation of how the EU works. Its a disgusting orgsnisation, riddled with corruption and undemocratic, lacking in transparency decision making. And Scotland has less influence on us either leaving it or affecting change in it than Greater London. Of course there are concerns about the EU as a political union, but we're in position to do anything about them, because of the nature of the other union we're in - the incorporating one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 No, that's a caricature, as was pointed out several pages ago. We *can* throw out the British cabinet at a General Election (we can't throw out undemocratic Lords, it's true, but after they sank Gideon's Working Tax Credit cuts the Tories might do that anyway). We *cannot* throw out an unelected EU commission no matter how much we hate their policy programme. Yes, I'm aware Scotland didn't vote Tory. But this is not an argument about Scottish independence. Nor can we remove Lords from cabinet positions regardless of general elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Cameron basically gambled and thought that the EU would bend to the will of the UK (that good old British arrogance again) which would have de-clawed the anti-EU brigade to some extent. The EU have told him to piss off and as a result he has strengthened his opponents arguments. Cameron is a busted flush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Reece Mogg apparently thinks the EU is getting far too much like the UK for the UK to remain in such an intolerable union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 DECENT BRITISH VALUES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Nor can we remove Lords from cabinet positions regardless of general elections. Indeed, as I observed in my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevthedee Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Kev the comedy "proud scot" hits another home run. "We're just a minor region, stop pretending otherwise, this isn't about our wee region, it's about the actual country!". Take a bow, whoever's behind the kev profile. You're doing a bangup job of portraying unionists as craven, anti-Scottish BritNats - the SNP should be paying you! Load of rubbish,we are only a minor region in the eyes of people who want independance and hate scotland still being part of the uk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The thought of an 'OUT' majority giving legitimacy to a further Referendum makes me quite happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Load of rubbish,we are only a minor region in the eyes of people who want independance and hate scotland still being part of the uk. 59 MPs out of 650. Big numbers for comedykev, I know. #proudregion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Literally no one is happy about this except the far right and the far left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The thought of an 'OUT' majority giving legitimacy to a further Referendum makes me quite happy. Under such an scenario, when should that second independence referendum take place? An independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU on very different terms, e.g. no opt-outs, a commitment to join the Eurozone. Would you support a referendum on that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Under such an scenario, when should that second independence referendum take place? An independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU on very different terms, e.g. no opt-outs, a commitment to join the Eurozone. Would you support a referendum on that too? To offer my opinion, a second referendum on Scotland's independence would only take place if the SNP put one in a future manifesto and the electorate voted for them to enact it. All that Scotland voting to remain in the EU whilst the rest of the UK voted to pull out would do is provide an example of the limitations of being part of an incorporating union. Whether or not that then encouraged support for Scottish independence (and thus encouraged the SNP to include a referendum in their manifesto) is a complete unknown. I reckon they only will if the Scottish electorate display an increased desire for independence following the EU referendum (however it goes). As to a Scottish referendum on joining the EU as an independent state, I'd have no problem with one. But that's rather putting cart before the horse, given there is no independence referendum on the horizon, and the EU referendum result is also unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Under such an scenario, when should that second independence referendum take place? An independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU on very different terms, e.g. no opt-outs, a commitment to join the Eurozone. Would you support a referendum on that too? I'll take Independence first and deal with anything that follows thanks. To offer my opinion, a second referendum on Scotland's independence would only take place if the SNP put one in a future manifesto and the electorate voted for them to enact it. All that Scotland voting to remain in the EU whilst the rest of the UK voted to pull out would do is provide an example of the limitations of being part of an incorporating union. Whether or not that then encouraged support for Scottish independence (and thus encouraged the SNP to include a referendum in their manifesto) is a complete unknown. I reckon they only will if the Scottish electorate display an increased desire for independence following the EU referendum (however it goes). As to a Scottish referendum on joining the EU as an independent state, I'd have no problem with one. But that's rather putting cart before the horse, given there is no independence referendum on the horizon, and the EU referendum result is also unknown. If you're not interested in speculating then Christ knows why you're posting on P&B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Recent EU referendum polls show a difference between telephone interviews and online questionnaires - http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9571 "The difference between EU referendum voting intentions appears to be a gap between online polling and telephone polling. It’s always difficult to be certain of course – there are many differences between different companies’ approaches and there haven’t been that many telephone polls – but the phone polls from ComRes and MORI are averaging around REMAIN 55%, LEAVE 35%, DON’T KNOW 10%, the online polls from ICM, YouGov, ComRes and Survation are averaging around REMAIN 43%, LEAVE 40%, DON’T KNOW 18%. The telephone polls have “remain” substantially higher and, intriguingly, “don’t know” substantially lower. As ever, it’s difficult to be confident what the reasons are – it could be a difference in sampling (if for some reason online or telephone samples reach respondents who are substantially more or less pro-European) or it could be an interviewer effect (if people are less willing to tell a human interviewer they would vote to leave or they haven’t yet decided)." Such huge differences are very significant and much bigger than the normal sampling error. The polling companies, especially given the general election inaccuracies, should investigate the reasons for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Was there a real life Bishop Briggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chlamydia Kid Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Was looking at the Scottish Social Attitudes survey results from 2014. 58% of Scots either wanted to leave the EU or have its powers curtailed. The propagation of this myth that Scots have some great affinity is SNP led nonsense to try and paint a picture of division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Is that the same one that said 74% of Scots actively wanted to stay in the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I don't think concerns at the disgraceful anti democratic nature of the EU should be dismissed by incorrect whataboutery. Anyone who doesn't have grave concerns about the EU just isn't thinking about it enough. That isn't to say these outweigh the reasons to stay, but there really does need to be a massive re evaluation of how the EU works. Its a disgusting orgsnisation, riddled with corruption and undemocratic, lacking in transparency decision making. All the problems are caused by the member states themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Scots hate the EU as much as everyone else, corrupt, un-democratic, the SNP are an absolute laughing stock. There isn't a day goes by where I don't hear people seething about those Europeans and laughing about the SNP. But then, I do hear voices in my head. Maybe the same ones that talk to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rational Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Scots hate the EU as much as everyone else, corrupt, un-democratic, the SNP are an absolute laughing stock. So much a laughing stock that they have the majority of MPs and MSPs in Scotland just now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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