Granny Danger Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I didn't name-check anybody within the PLP who I thought was hard left. I take it that you would accept that Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are on the far-left, though? There is no organised, credible, established left-of-centre party to oppose Labour in rUK precisely because Labour satisfied that demand for so long. There is no one reason to explain the SNP's massive success in May. I am sure that some voters were swayed by their anti-austerity message, but I'm sceptical of any claim that their anti-austerity platform was more conducive to their success than nationalism. What policies does Corbyn support that makes him 'far left'? From what I can see far more people voted SNP because they wanted a party of social justice than because they're 'nationalists'. One of the reasons Labour won't be winning votes back in Scotland any time soon is because they don't even realise (or refuse to accept) why they lost them in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 What policies does Corbyn support that makes him 'far left'? From what I can see far more people voted SNP because they wanted a party of social justice than because they're 'nationalists'. One of the reasons Labour won't be winning votes back in Scotland any time soon is because they don't even realise (or refuse to accept) why they lost them in the first place. Corbyn and McDonnell position themselves to the left of social democracy and the 'soft left'. Corbyn is a member of both the Labour Representation Committee and Stop the War. Granted, it's difficult to scrutinise Corbyn's policies at the moment because he's saying very little about policy. His leadership thus far has been almost entirely focused on attempting to hold together a fractured parliamentary party. If you can tell me exactly what it was that lost Labour so many votes in Scotland, I would be very interested to hear it. I have my theories, but saying that people voted for the SNP "because they wanted a party of social justice", doesn't strike me as an adequate explanation for such a radical change in the landscape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I didn't name-check anybody within the PLP who I thought was hard left. I take it that you would accept that Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are on the far-left, though? There is no organised, credible, established left-of-centre party to oppose Labour in rUK precisely because Labour satisfied that demand for so long. There is no one reason to explain the SNP's massive success in May. I am sure that some voters were swayed by their anti-austerity message, but I'm sceptical of any claim that their anti-austerity platform was more conducive to their success than nationalism. Corbyn and McDonnell are left-leaning social democrats. The fact that they are presented as off -the-scale ultra-leftists by so many is indicative of the massive direction of travel, rightwards, in UK politics since the mid-1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Corbyn and McDonnell position themselves to the left of social democracy and the 'soft left'. Corbyn is a member of both the Labour Representation Committee and Stop the War. Granted, it's difficult to scrutinise Corbyn's policies at the moment because he's saying very little about policy. His leadership thus far has been almost entirely focused on attempting to hold together a fractured parliamentary party. If you can tell me exactly what it was that lost Labour so many votes in Scotland, I would be very interested to hear it. I have my theories, but saying that people voted for the SNP "because they wanted a party of social justice", doesn't strike me as an adequate explanation for such a radical change in the landscape. perhaps gladhanding the Tories on No-voting platforms around Scotland in 2014 didn't project an image that the Scottish electorate were comfortable with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Corbyn and McDonnell position themselves to the left of social democracy and the 'soft left'. Corbyn is a member of both the Labour Representation Committee and Stop the War. Granted, it's difficult to scrutinise Corbyn's policies at the moment because he's saying very little about policy. His leadership thus far has been almost entirely focused on attempting to hold together a fractured parliamentary party. If you can tell me exactly what it was that lost Labour so many votes in Scotland, I would be very interested to hear it. I have my theories, but saying that people voted for the SNP "because they wanted a party of social justice", doesn't strike me as an adequate explanation for such a radical change in the landscape. Just so we're clear, you label Corbyn as being on the far left but can't name any policies he supports that justifies that statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Where's JMO when we need him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 perhaps gladhanding the Tories on No-voting platforms around Scotland in 2014 didn't project an image that the Scottish electorate were comfortable with? That doesn't explain why Labour failed to retain such a large amount of 'No' voters. Sadly, there wasn't any convincing strategy for after September 18th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Just so we're clear, you label Corbyn as being on the far left but can't name any policies he supports that justifies that statement? The policies I can quote, like 'People's QE', are carried over from the leadership campaign. Since becoming leader, he's been more reliant on platitude than policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 That's a fair point; might I suggest as supplementary reasons: 1. Jim Murphy 2. Dougie "shitfinger" Alexander - the Jimmy Bone of politics 3. Ed Miliband going down like a cup of cold sick with Labour's core supporters 4. voter demographic change; people who would have unquestioningly voted Labour 30 years ago now haemorrhaging to the SNP 5. people no longer see Labour as the best /most competent party to speak fo0r Scotland in Westminster. This does not mean that the same group of people want to see an independent Scotland. 6. Labour being completely sunk by the right wing fearmongering strategy re: potential Labour-SNP pact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The policies I can quote, like 'People's QE', are carried over from the leadership campaign. Since becoming leader, he's been more reliant on platitude than policy. in what way is that "far left"? Corbyn is on a hiding to nothing. Take your time to develop policy in detail, people shriek that you are weak and have no policies. Take an early stance on an issue, you're a loony leftie shooting from the hip without the support of the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 in what way is that "far left"? Corbyn is on a hiding to nothing. Take your time to develop policy in detail, people shriek that you are weak and have no policies. Take an early stance on an issue, you're a loony leftie shooting from the hip without the support of the party. Within the context of Labour, even those MPs who previously would have been considered towards the moderate left of the party on economic policy, like Yvette Cooper, are opposed to it. My worry isn't that Jeremy Corbyn is taking time to develop policies, but that there might be no policies forthcoming. In the event of Corbyn proposing some more 'radical' policies, it will be difficult to get the Shadow Cabinet and PLP onside. Labour under Ed Miliband had too little to say to people, and lessons have to be learned from that regardless of who the leader is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 That's a fair point; might I suggest as supplementary reasons: 1. Jim Murphy 2. Dougie "shitfinger" Alexander - the Jimmy Bone of politics 3. Ed Miliband going down like a cup of cold sick with Labour's core supporters 4. voter demographic change; people who would have unquestioningly voted Labour 30 years ago now haemorrhaging to the SNP 5. people no longer see Labour as the best /most competent party to speak fo0r Scotland in Westminster. This does not mean that the same group of people want to see an independent Scotland. 6. Labour being completely sunk by the right wing fearmongering strategy re: potential Labour-SNP pact Miliband saying he wouldn't work with the SNP appeared to be a huge turn off for folk. 'Yes you can democratically elect who you want but don't expect me to respect the result'. Ignorant, unaware, badly advised tosser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Within the context of Labour, even those MPs who previously would have been considered towards the moderate left of the party on economic policy, like Yvette Cooper, are opposed to it. My worry isn't that Jeremy Corbyn is taking time to develop policies, but that there might be no policies forthcoming. In the event of Corbyn proposing some more 'radical' policies, it will be difficult to get the Shadow Cabinet and PLP onside. Labour under Ed Miliband had too little to say to people, and lessons have to be learned from that regardless of who the leader is. Corbyn quite clearly is trying to bypass the PLP with an appeal to the membership, who gave him a huge mandate to develop a platform to the left of Blair and Brown's pro-business contuinuity Thatcherism. Hence it is going to be messy for Labour for a while, and I don't think Corbyn's strategy wil succeed. Trying to recreate the Labour party of the late 1970s with a mixture of wishful thinking and deselection chicanery won't work simply because he doesn't have the time for it to work. A smart Corbyn would be trying to do the heavy lifting for eighteen months-two years, alter the internal dynamic of Labour, and then let someone else take the reins before 2020. Much as he seems a thoughful and polite guy with his heart in the right place, quite clearly he is not a leader, and totally unelectable. I don't think anyone either within or outwith the Labour party saw it becoming quite such a shambles so quickly. And any fix is not easy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenal till I die Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Miliband saying he wouldn't work with the SNP appeared to be a huge turn off for folk. 'Yes you can democratically elect who you want but don't expect me to respect the result'. Ignorant, unaware, badly advised tosser. Including in England. It's the good old Labour mistake of not realising the golden rule of politics - Tory voters will vote Tory. They also fail to realise that in England, people don't vote Labour to stop the SNP or to stop Scottish independence, or because the Tories don't stand a chance (which they don't in Scotland). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Another internal Labour faction has been launched, calling themselves 'Open Labour'. From what I can decipher from this article, they are essentially attempting to provide an organisational base for the soft-left: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/09/labour-activists-launch-new-group-on-partys-left?CMP=twt_gu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Are the soft lefts moderates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-r-cfc Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Soft left and hard left? Labour have effectively became eggs is what we're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob the tank Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Are the soft lefts moderates? No they are just the wimps the hard left bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Soft left = abstaining, fence sitting, pathetic washouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotSquid Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Another internal Labour faction has been launched, calling themselves 'Open Labour'. From what I can decipher from this article, they are essentially attempting to provide an organisational base for the soft-left: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/09/labour-activists-launch-new-group-on-partys-left?CMP=twt_gu Mmmm.. This will end well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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