Holyrood '16 polls and predictions

[Baxter Parp]

No, it's a narrow definition and largely a useless one as well. The benchmark of progressive taxation must be based on the ability of the person to pay. That's what we are all talking about, that's the ball game.

If that's the ball game then you'll have to call it something else.

[Baxter Parp]

http://localtaxcommission.scot/html-version-of-just-change-a-new-approach-to-local-taxation/05-can-a-local-tax-be-fair-and-equitable-for-everyone/

Council Tax = above certain thresholds the tax rate increases.

You and whoever made this graph may not like it but that's the definition of progressive.

[welshbairn]

Council Tax = above certain thresholds the tax rate increases.

You and whoever made this graph may not like it but that's the definition of progressive.

You pay a higher percentage of the value of your home if it's worth less than if it's worth more. That's the definition of a regressive tax.

[renton]

If that's the ball game then you'll have to call it something else.

No, I'll stick to the notion that progressive taxation implies a wealth redistribution based on ability to pay, in context of Scottish politics, that's what people mean. If it doesn't do that, it's not progressive.

Council Tax = above certain thresholds the tax rate increases.

You and whoever made this graph may not like it but that's the definition of progressive.

Whoever made this graph? That'll be the cross party commission on local tax endorsed by the Scottish government and including SNP MSP Marco Biagi.

[Baxter Parp]

You pay a higher percentage of the value of your home if it's worth less than if it's worth more. That's the definition of a regressive tax.

No it isn't, cheers.

[Baxter Parp]

No, I'll stick to the notion that progressive taxation implies a wealth redistribution based on ability to pay, in context of Scottish politics, that's what people mean. If it doesn't do that, it's not progressive.

I understand what you mean in that context but that doesn't mean that the Council Tax is a regressive tax. You shouldn't go about redefining words based on what you think they should mean. You or Marco Biagi.

A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.

[renton]

I understand what you mean in that context but that doesn't mean that the Council Tax is a regressive tax. You shouldn't go about redefining words based on what you think they should mean. You or Marco Biagi.

A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.

Is the overall impact on the taxpayer regressive? Yes it is, middle earners pay more proportionally in CT than high earners. Council tax because it is more loosely tied to people's overall earnings than income tax cannot be seen in isolation and must be seen in context of the indivudual's overall tax liability - in this sense the system is regressive. The changes mooted on Wednesday make it less regressive but do not make it overall progressive. Unless there is a radical change in how the bands are valued, or a move away from that type of taxation then local tax as it exists in scotland will tend towards always having a regressive effect on the tax base.

[welshbairn]

No it isn't, cheers.

The council tax Band A, for Highland properties valued at up to £27,000, is £775.33, ie. 2.87% minimum

The council tax Band H, for Highland properties valued above £212,000, is £2326, ie. 1.1% maximum

Yes it is, cheers.

[Baxter Parp]

The council tax Band A, for Highland properties valued at up to £27,000, is £775.33, ie. 2.87%

The council tax Band H, for Highland properties valued above £212,000, is £2326, ie. 1.1%

Yes it is, cheers.

Does the amount you pay progress/increase depending on the value? Yes it does, cheers.

[welshbairn]

Does the amount you pay progress/increase depending on the value? Yes it does, cheers.

So you'd call a fixed tax like VAT a progressive tax? You certainly bring a unique perspective into the debate.

[Baxter Parp]

So you'd call a fixed tax like VAT a progressive tax? You certainly bring a unique perspective into the debate.

In what way is VAT like the Council Tax and why would I call it progressive?

[Ad Lib]

Does the amount you pay progress/increase depending on the value? Yes it does, cheers.

This misses the point.

If you had an income tax system where someone on £12k paid £100 but someone on £1 million paid £400, clearly that would be a system where "the amount you pay increases depending on how much you earn". But that's not a progressive tax system because the effective rates of taxes of 3.33% and 0.04% on their income.

The SNP, to their credit, have clearly made the council tax more progressive, by any objective measure of progressivity, than it was before. They've basically done what I said they should and could have done a long time ago without having to wait for the Commission first to report on possible replacement strategies, which is to alter the ratios for higher banded properties. It is disappointing that they have left it at that, but it's better than the pretty insipid status quo they were preserving before.

[welshbairn]

In what way is VAT like the Council Tax and why would I call it progressive?

You pay more tax on a higher valued item, which seems to be your argument for calling council tax progressive despite the % council tax bearing more heavily on lower value homes.

[Baxter Parp]

You pay more tax on a higher valued item, which seems to be your argument for calling council tax progressive despite the % council tax bearing more heavily on lower value homes.

You pay the same tax on every item, chum. The rate depends on what it is, not what it's valued at. Try again?

[Baxter Parp]

This misses the point.

If you had an income tax system where someone on £12k paid £100 but someone on £1 million paid £400, clearly that would be a system where "the amount you pay increases depending on how much you earn". But that's not a progressive tax system because the effective rates of taxes of 3.33% and 0.04% on their income.

The SNP, to their credit, have clearly made the council tax more progressive, by any objective measure of progressivity, than it was before. They've basically done what I said they should and could have done a long time ago without having to wait for the Commission first to report on possible replacement strategies, which is to alter the ratios for higher banded properties. It is disappointing that they have left it at that, but it's better than the pretty insipid status quo they were preserving before.

I agree with Ad Lib. I'm not happy about it but there you go.

[Ad Lib]

You pay the same tax on every item, chum. The rate depends on what it is, not what it's valued at. Try again?

No this is stupid.

The measure of a tax's progressivity can be done either with respect to the income or the wealth of the person who is liable to pay it.

VAT is generally considered to be a moderately regressive tax because those of low means generally pay a higher proportion of both their income and wealth in Value Added Tax than those of greater means do.

Clearly this is mitigated by the exemptions, reduced rate and zero-rating of certain "essential" goods, but the net effect is still regressive even when this is taken into account.

[welshbairn]

You pay the same tax on every item, chum. The rate depends on what it is, not what it's valued at. Try again?

I really think you should pull back on this one, or look up the definitions of progressive, regressive and fixed taxes.

I agree with Ad Lib. I'm not happy about it but there you go.

His point was exactly the same as mine.

[Baxter Parp]

I really think you should pull back on this one, or look up the definitions of progressive, regressive and fixed taxes.

I have and I've posted them here.

"His point was exactly the same as mine"

It's the same point I made earlier.

[Baxter Parp]

No this is stupid.

The measure of a tax's progressivity can be done either with respect to the income or the wealth of the person who is liable to pay it.

VAT is generally considered to be a moderately regressive tax because those of low means generally pay a higher proportion of both their income and wealth in Value Added Tax than those of greater means do.

Clearly this is mitigated by the exemptions, reduced rate and zero-rating of certain "essential" goods, but the net effect is still regressive even when this is taken into account.

It's a flat rate tax, the epitome of a regressive tax. I never said it was progressive.

[welshbairn]

OK, you say Council Tax is progressive because you pay a higher amount for a more expensive property, despite being a lower percentage of its valuation.

So in your world VAT is even more progressive as not only do you pay more tax on a more expensive item, you pay the same percentage.

(In the real world VAT is a regressive tax as Ad Lib says, as the poorer you are the higher proportion of your income you spend on goods liable to VAT.)