The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours

[Rudolph Hucker]

7 hours ago, virginton said:

GMFC received a completely ridiculous £500k bung from the government, will have all its debts cleared as a result of the takeover deal, and had only a handful of youngsters on the payroll, at the end of the 20/21 campaign. You're talking complete and utter nonsense then - the club was in an excellent position to structure its costs to match revenue, whether in League One or the Championship.

If GMFC was somehow incapable of dealing with relegation under those conditions without facing 'financial disaster', then the club will surely die as and when relegation inevitably occurs under less favourable circumstances in the future. There are already a stack of two year deals that act as hostages to fortune, if we were to be relegated this season instead. The claim about the impact on 'supporter morale' and support for fan ownership will only be enhanced by the new regime being wholly responsible for relegation, this season or any season in the near future. MCT would not have taken the hit last season; the Raes would have instead. 

Your gormless argument then boils down to 'GMFC must never be relegated from the second tier under any circumstances or else it's Armageddon', which is not a serious approach to running a professional football club and business.

The best opportunity that the club will have to restructure to function properly at whatever level its first team squad plays at is being frittered away on a daily basis, as a result of the short term obsession with league status. We have nearly gone under twice this century already and unless Morton fans stop drinking the Rae Kool-Aid about playing in the 'right division' being the most important task then we'll be getting out the begging bowl again soon enough. 

I see..... So, what you're saying is that it doesn't really matter what league we're in and whether we are relegated or not, all we have to do is drop down one or more divisions in the next few seasons and as long as we commit to a hybrid full- & part-time basis all will be sweetness and light and we will eventually be back in this division competing with the full-time teams. Pretty much, err, just as we are NOW, THIS SEASON, then, except that we're still full- time and should therefore be better able to compete, as we saw when we played against Airdrie who operate on broadly similar terms to those that we wish us to adopt. 

Thanks for clearing that up. Next, tell us all how to nail jelly to the ceiling. 

[vikingTON]

5 hours ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

I'm also concerned about the way the MCT transition has gone so far and agree there are big question marks against their ability to really bring about change in the way the club operates, but you make the key point yourself: consolidation on the park (immediate term) doesn't have to be at the expense of development off it (ongoing).

How successful MCT are in changing the culture, generating new income etc. will affect future seasons, but for this one the manager and the budget are in place and McPherson has a very specific job to do... and how well he manages it will have an effect on the bigger picture.

Well no, that's not true though. McPherson was given a two year deal by the club, so regardless of whether he carries out the very specific job asked of him this season or not, the club is on the hook for his wages for 22/23 as well.

Regardless of whether GMFC under its new ownership does the sums and finally grasps that acting as the last and lowest paying port of call for full-time haddies before their spell in the Kelty/Falkirk/Dumbarton wilderness is a mug's game, they will have to run those changes past McPherson or pay him off. Any players who don't fancy the change of structure but got a two year deal are in the same boat. 

Those are obstacles to change already created by the new regime within weeks of taking over, and there won't be a summer where we don't have similar entrenched interests to deal with. Which was why this year - with no chief executive or chairman; no permanent manager; no senior first team players contracted - was the ideal time to achieve genuine change in the club's culture. There will never be the same opportunity or will to do so, once MCT's directors are faced with backtracking on their own decisions. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

I see..... So, what you're saying is that it doesn't really matter what league we're in and whether we are relegated or not, all we have to do is drop down one or more divisions in the next few seasons and as long as we commit to a hybrid full- & part-time basis all will be sweetness and light and we will eventually be back in this division competing with the full-time teams. 

It doesn't matter what division we're playing in, when the most important task is to adapt the club to live reliably within its means regardless of the level, rather than run up a third, utterly ridiculous debt pile in 25 years. Because next time it will be fatal. 

This was supposedly the most important outcome for all Morton fans on this thread back in December when the club was a total nick, but this has turned out to have been the predictable exercise in crocodile tears beloved of Livingston and Dundee fans as well. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Branch Ton]

21 minutes ago, virginton said:

It doesn't matter what division we're playing in, when the most important task is to adapt the club to live reliably within its means regardless of the level, rather than run up a third, utterly ridiculous debt pile in 25 years. Because next time it will be fatal. 

This was supposedly the most important outcome for all Morton fans on this thread back in December when the club was a total nick, but this has turned out to have been the predictable exercise in crocodile tears beloved of Livingston and Dundee fans as well. 

You seem to think that a budgeted business plan is a words game whereas it’s actually about numbers. No one is interested in your turgid adjectives and adverbs. Give us the figures and costed projections to justify your hypothesis about relegation being a financial advantage and a solid basis to progress. 
 

it’s about data not doom mongering.

[vikingTON]

Who stated that relegation would be "a financial advantage" and when did this take place? 

Be extremely specific. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Rudolph Hucker]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

Who stated that relegation would be "a financial advantage" and when did this take place? 

Be extremely specific. 

Great, that's progress - a tacit admission that, err, it WOULDN'T have been a financial advantage. 

Now, keep it up and try yet again to show us all how relegation would've been a solid basis to progress - because so far you haven't had a single poster in agreement or supporting that ridiculous contention. 

Again, be extremely specific. 

We're waiting.......       

[The Ghost of B A R P]

39 minutes ago, virginton said:

Well no, that's not true though. McPherson was given a two year deal by the club, so regardless of whether he carries out the very specific job asked of him this season or not, the club is on the hook for his wages for 22/23 as well.

Well, it quite clearly is true… a manager and budget is in place for this season.

Next season is next season; like games, you can only take them one at a time.

As I said, by all means have the conversation about general development in parallel, as and when we actually see how the MCT guys perform.

You seem to imagine there’s a scenario where we can stop the bus, get everything in place behind the scenes, then continue being a professional football club.

There isn’t; all the challenges have to be faced at the same time. If we don’t at least consolidate on the playing side, everything else becomes more, not less difficult.

[vikingTON]

11 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Well, it quite clearly is true… a manager and budget is in place for this season.

Next season is next season; like games, you can only take them one at a time.

You can't though, when you've already signed up the same manager and senior players for next season. If Gus McPherson meets his remit for first team performance this season, but the club decides it wants to go part-time and he shows zero interest in that project, who wins that tug of war? Does the club (i.e. us, as owners) pay off the manager and waste resources, or do the board backpedal on what it considers to be the best long-term policy for the club to keep the manager? 

This is precisely why having a clear deck is the ideal time to achieve genuine change at the club, because once you commit to 'league survival' on a season by season basis, the higher the financial and psychological costs are from changing course later. 

Quote

 

You seem to imagine there’s a scenario where we can stop the bus, get everything in place behind the scenes, then continue being a professional football club.

There isn’t; all the challenges have to be faced at the same time. If we don’t at least consolidate on the playing side, everything else becomes more, not less difficult.

 

You seem to imagine that GMFC are capable of a completely rational restructure behind the scenes, while also keeping a competitive second tier team on the park. That is the truly imaginary, delusional, wishful thinking exercise in operation here. We often struggle to put a competitive team together without changing anything at all in the backroom operations.

The useless compromises that actually come from trying to keep the club on both of those tracks at the same time have been playing out at the club almost entirely as I've predicted for two months now. The only one that I didn't get right was that we'd actually hand over a ridiculous two year deal to the management team as well, but that's Morton for you in overdelivering when it comes to inexplicable decision-making. 

[vikingTON]

35 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Great, that's progress - a tacit admission that, err, it WOULDN'T have been a financial advantage. 

Now, keep it up and try yet again to show us all how relegation would've been a solid basis to progress - because so far you haven't had a single poster in agreement or supporting that ridiculous contention. 

Again, be extremely specific. 

We're waiting.......       

I couldn't give a toss if other posters don't agree with me. I've presented a clear case, predicted long ago how the club would react to glorious 'play-off survival' and these predictions have effortlessly come to pass.

There is no solid basis for progress from this summer's combination of short-term compromises and inertia. And if it gets punished with relegation, which is always a realistic threat in this division, then that's the ballgame I fear for a very worthwhile fan ownership project as well.  

[Branch Ton]

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

You can't though, when you've already signed up the same manager and senior players for next season. If Gus McPherson meets his remit for first team performance this season, but the club decides it wants to go part-time and he shows zero interest in that project, who wins that tug of war? Does the club (i.e. us, as owners) pay off the manager and waste resources, or do the board backpedal on what it considers to be the best long-term policy for the club to keep the manager? 

This is precisely why having a clear deck is the ideal time to achieve genuine change at the club, because once you commit to 'league survival' on a season by season basis, the higher the financial and psychological costs are from changing course later. 

You seem to imagine that GMFC are capable of a completely rational restructure behind the scenes, while also keeping a competitive second tier team on the park. That is the truly imaginary, delusional, wishful thinking exercise in operation here. We often struggle to put a competitive team together without changing anything at all in the backroom operations.

The useless compromises that actually come from trying to keep the club on both of those tracks at the same time have been playing out at the club almost entirely as I've predicted for two months now. The only one that I didn't get right was that we'd actually hand over a ridiculous two year deal to the management team as well, but that's Morton for you in overdelivering when it comes to inexplicable decision-making. 

What is it with you and these diversionary hypotheses Doc. 

The point at issue is your assertion that the club would have been better off being relegated. Where is your  fact based analysis to justify your assertion whether it be short, medium or long term. 

You don’t seem to be able to grasp simple financial concepts such as the right to play in the championship is an intangible asset which can be valued and brought into the balance sheet at a much higher value than the right to visit the seaside on a fortnightly basis.

 

 

[vikingTON]

4 minutes ago, Branch Ton said:

What is it with you and these diversionary hypotheses Doc. 

The point at issue is your assertion that the club would have been better off being relegated. Where is your  fact based analysis to justify your assertion whether it be short, medium or long term. 

You don’t seem to be able to grasp simple financial concepts such as the right to play in the championship is an intangible asset which can be valued and brought into the balance sheet at a much higher value than the right to visit the seaside on a fortnightly basis.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Who stated that relegation would be "a financial advantage" and when did this take place? 

Be extremely specific. 

Answer the question please chump.

And after that, you can show where and how 'Championship football!!!!1111!!!' is valued on the assets side of a balance sheet at GMFC or any other Scottish football club. 

I'm beginning to think that your claimed stint as Endemol CEO was at Enron tbh. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Branch Ton]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

 

I'm beginning to think 

That’s certainly something I would recommend you do before you talk out your arse again. 
 

Thanks for your tacit admission that you haven’t made any financial impact analysts about relegation.

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, Branch Ton said:

That’s certainly something I would recommend you do before you talk out your arse again. 
 

Thanks for your tacit admission that you haven’t made any financial impact analysts about relegation.

^^^ word salad

And then you can get round to answering the questions below:

10 minutes ago, virginton said:

Who stated that relegation would be "a financial advantage" and when did this take place? 

Be extremely specific. 

Answer the question please chump.

And after that, you can show where and how 'Championship football!!!!1111!!!' is valued on the assets side of a balance sheet at GMFC or any other Scottish football club. 

I'm beginning to think that your claimed stint as Endemol CEO was at Enron tbh. 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Rudolph Hucker]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

I couldn't give a toss if other posters don't agree with me. I've presented a clear case, predicted long ago how the club would react to glorious 'play-off survival' and these predictions have effortlessly come to pass.

There is no solid basis for progress from this summer's combination of short-term compromises and inertia. And if it gets punished with relegation, which is always a realistic threat in this division, then that's the ballgame I fear for a very worthwhile fan ownership project as well.  

Rriigghhtt...... 

So, basically, relegation a few weeks ago would have been a good thing.......  Because you say so. 

However, relegation at the end of the COMING season would be a BAAAD thing....... Because you say so. 

I think we're all getting the picture here, champ. 

[BraeTon74]

8 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Rriigghhtt...... 

So, basically, relegation a few weeks ago would have been a good thing.......  Because you say so. 

However, relegation at the end of the COMING season would be a BAAAD thing....... Because you say so. 

I think we're all getting the picture here, champ. 

Relegation last season would have been blamed on the Raes so, most likely, MCT would have been fine. Relegation this season would be blamed on MCT which could derail the whole project. 

 

So whilst I don't agree with everything VT has ever said, he is correct in differentiating between the impact of relegation last season and this.

[Branch Ton]

5 hours ago, BraeTon74 said:

Relegation last season would have been blamed on the Raes so, most likely, MCT would have been fine. Relegation this season would be blamed on MCT which could derail the whole project. 

 

So whilst I don't agree with everything VT has ever said, he is correct in differentiating between the impact of relegation last season and this.

Relegation last season would have had a marked impact on the club’s ability to attract commercial borrowing, sponsorship, fan base, gate receipts, quality players etc. Newco would have been starting from an extremely weak base. It’s facile nonsense  to blindly overlook that simply because further down the line “blame” could be pinned on someone else.

Blaming and belittling other people is what a sociopath does as a palliative for his own sorry existence.

[BraeTon74]

1 hour ago, Branch Ton said:

Relegation last season would have had a marked impact on the club’s ability to attract commercial borrowing, sponsorship, fan base, gate receipts, quality players etc. Newco would have been starting from an extremely weak base. It’s facile nonsense  to blindly overlook that simply because further down the line “blame” could be pinned on someone else.

Blaming and belittling other people is what a sociopath does as a palliative for his own sorry existence.

Sorry but throwing in a few scrabble high scores doesn't make your point more valid.  How does Cammy Blues qualify as a quality player? Don't get me wrong - at no point did I want us to get relegated. However, what has happened since we won the playoffs has severely dampened my enthusiasm. From signing a sex offender, a 2 year deal for Gus to 3 weeks without a manager update - its just stinking of 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. I really hope we see real progress when they hire a new General Manager and officially take the reigns but, from that moment on, they will be responsible for the success of the club.

 

The last part of your comment is pompous rubbish. Holding the owners of the football club responsible for the performance of the football club isn't "what a sociopath does as a palliative for his own sorry existence." I can't even imagine a universe without blame or consequence of action.

[Branch Ton]

14 minutes ago, BraeTon74 said:

Sorry but throwing in a few scrabble high scores doesn't make your point more valid.  How does Cammy Blues qualify as a quality player? Don't get me wrong - at no point did I want us to get relegated. However, what has happened since we won the playoffs has severely dampened my enthusiasm. From signing a sex offender, a 2 year deal for Gus to 3 weeks without a manager update - its just stinking of 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. I really hope we see real progress when they hire a new General Manager and officially take the reigns but, from that moment on, they will be responsible for the success of the club.

 

The last part of your comment is pompous rubbish. Holding the owners of the football club responsible for the performance of the football club isn't "what a sociopath does as a palliative for his own sorry existence." I can't even imagine a universe without blame or consequence of action.

The central argument put forward here was that we would have been in a better position to build a sustainable base had we been relegated. VT steadfastly refuses to substantiate that claim certainty in relation to Newcos financial position.

For my part I too have been far from impressed by what has happened during the transitional. Better tough that things have happened than  a lacuna (low enough scrabble score for you?). It’s not possible to hold anyone properly to account at the moment without knowing who is making these decisions  and whether and to what extent Newco is involved.

Everything in the universe of the Numpty you are white knighting is about criticism and blame. In fact this entire  thread is polluted by personalised rants, mainly from life’s non achievers, denigrating  countless players simply trying to make their way in the game. If only the entire UK subjected the Tory Government to the same level of scrutiny.  But then nothing matters so much as a young lad misplacing a pass.

[BraeTon74]

30 minutes ago, Branch Ton said:

The central argument put forward here was that we would have been in a better position to build a sustainable base had we been relegated. VT steadfastly refuses to substantiate that claim certainty in relation to Newcos financial position.

For my part I too have been far from impressed by what has happened during the transitional. Better tough that things have happened than  a lacuna (low enough scrabble score for you?). It’s not possible to hold anyone properly to account at the moment without knowing who is making these decisions  and whether and to what extent Newco is involved.

Everything in the universe of the Numpty you are white knighting is about criticism and blame. In fact this entire  thread is polluted by personalised rants, mainly from life’s non achievers, denigrating  countless players simply trying to make their way in the game. If only the entire UK subjected the Tory Government to the same level of scrutiny.  But then nothing matters so much as a young lad misplacing a pass.

See the difference is, I'm not VT. I'm simply discussing my view on the situation as that's what this forum is for. I've had plenty of stick from VT on the mortonforum but he's correct about the danger posed to MCT if this season is a turgid failure like last season. Now, I think there is a chance that we can succeed on and off the park this season but that hope diminishes with each day that passes without news, engagement or iniative. I've been contributing to MCT since day 1 and have continued to even through furlough and then further financial woe. I'm fully committed to the project succeeding but there's only so much that can be tolerated. Signing Lithgow tested my resolve. Its entirely reasonable to suggest that some will cancel their subscriptions if progress isn't made this season.

 

Also, you can't be stoic or take the moral high-ground whilst patronising folk on a football forum for talking about, ehm, football. I care a helluva lot more about politics than I do about Morton, it just so happens that this is a Morton page. I'd take independence over promotion - lets just hope that it won't be a lifetime for either.

[DreamOakTree1]

Surely whoever wanted Morton to stay up or wanted us relegated now have to accept we’re playing in the Championship and get behind the team. 
Is there anything to be gained by fast forwarding to the end of the season when again we’ll either stay up or be relegated. The play-offs got us to where we are now and wherever we are at the end of the season will be the product of that. If we get behind our team in the traditional manner, wanting the most successful outcome possible, it may help them achieve that outcome.