When will indyref2 happen?

[jakedee]

Do you think that there is no need to be concerned about independence?

On balance,i'm far more concerned about remaining in the Union.

[Ad Lib]

43 minutes ago, strichener said:

Given that most EU legislation is enacted through UK laws, how long would it take Scotland to get these passed as Scottish Acts?

The acquis isn’t the issue. You could legislate to implement that in a day if you really wanted to.

The issue is that administrative process are, in literally days’ time, about to be adapted to deal with the consequences of the UK diverging from the acquis.

Disentangling that would take quite a bit of time, let alone alongside trying to create the institutional apparatus of a new state.

That new state would also have to create institutions on a Scotland basis that presently exist on a UK wide basis for acquis compliance.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Ad Lib

[Bula Bairn]

4 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

I find the rejoining the EU argument pretty tedious, but, it'll be up to the EU as to what timescale we rejoin. 

If they want us to jump through hoops and it takes 5 years, then that's what it'll take. If they want to bend rules, hand waive and fast track Scotland to spite the rUK and accept us immediately as a continuity member then they'll do that.

Anything else is just guessing, and the EU probably aren't really bothered about hypotheticals whilst we don't even have a date for any 2nd ref.

Very tedious. Rejoining would be seen as a formality either way. 

[Wee Bully]

Good stuff....as I question one or two facets of Independence and am critical of SNP policy on schools,care homes, and obsession with polling numbers, I am therefore a troll...have never in fact been a member of said party, or indeed campaigned for and voted for Independence......can see the logic.
So, in conclusion,.....any criticism or questioning of SNP policy whatsoever=clearly trolling.
Open debate....love it.

That’s not what you were doing though. And I don’t believe for a second that you voted Yes last time around.

[Guest Jedi]

51 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

That’s not what you were doing though. And I don’t believe for a second that you voted Yes last time around.

Believe what you like Bully...even photos of my membership cards from back in the 80s wouldn't convince you anyway. (as of course they would be photshopped). Meantime enjoy your sunshine and flowers view of all things Independence which doesn't require any debate or discussion. It will be alright on the night.

My long experience as a member, campaigner, election agent, and local office bearer of the SNP, at least taught me that discussion, debate, divergence of views, and asking hard questions 'used' to be part of party life.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Jedi

[Gordon EF]

I'm sure people are actually being martyred on the alter of objectivity as opposed to people finding their posting style of constantly and exclusively criticising one party tedious.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Gordon EF

[Guest Jedi]

I think you will find in previous posts plenty of criticism of the Tories from me, as well as questioning of Labour's direction, and pretty scathing about the Lib Dems Gordon...not quite a tedious criticism of ' just' the SNP.

I have also made many very positive posts about Independence. Don't personally see anything wrong with asking questions which are bound to come up anyway in any Indy Ref, but hey ho.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Jedi

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Both. Opponents to independence will depict this as a non-negotiable barrier to entry, proponents as a condition that must be worked towards. I personally view it more as the latter given that's how it works (you commit to achieving that goal, the EU checks if you did, makes you make a plan to achieve it if not, fines you if you didn't meet your objectives). After all several countries in the EU aren't meeting these criteria now and are subject to these processes.

It's more than several now.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I find the rejoining the EU argument pretty tedious, but, it'll be up to the EU as to what timescale we rejoin. 
If they want us to jump through hoops and it takes 5 years, then that's what it'll take. If they want to bend rules, hand waive and fast track Scotland to spite the rUK and accept us immediately as a continuity member then they'll do that.
Anything else is just guessing, and the EU probably aren't really bothered about hypotheticals whilst we don't even have a date for any 2nd ref.

Those who try to use past precedent are missing the point - the EU will do what they always do - take the action which is most politically expedient.

It's why some countries in the past have been fast-tracked and others (Turkey being the main one) who have had hurdle after hurdle placed in the way of EU membership.

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I think you will find in previous posts plenty of criticism of the Tories from me, as well as questioning of Labour's direction, and pretty scathing about the Lib Dems Gordon...not quite a tedious criticism of ' just' the SNP.

I have also made many very positive posts about Independence. Don't personally see anything wrong with asking questions which are bound to come up anyway in any Indy Ref, but hey ho.

Yeah, I know. It's just that there are a handful of posters who do seem to enjoy in coming on, taking a negative or pessimistic view on something related to independence or the SNP and then revelling in this sense of martyrdom about being the only one who isn't blinded by party loyalty etc. DAFC has been by far the worst for this in 2020.

Of course there are some folk who have a naive view on how easy and rosy independence is all going to be in the short term. And anyone can take an optimistic or pessimistic view on any position. I don't think there's any road that looks like an easy win over the next 5-10 years to be honest. Brexit has made all options more difficult. The question is, mid to long term, is it better to be tied to weight stubbornly dragging us down or not?

Just taking the pessimistic da' position of "Spain'll veto us cos of Catalonia" as if you've just been chatting away to the Spanish foreign minister is just as much a stab in the dark as those who say we'll be fast-tracked in within a year or so and it'll be easy.

[Gordon EF]

11 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Those who try to use past precedent are missing the point - the EU will do what they always do - take the action which is most politically expedient.

It's why some countries in the past have been fast-tracked and others (Turkey being the main one) who have had hurdle after hurdle placed in the way of EU membership.

This. Folk on here often talk about international relations as if it's applying for a driving license where there's a strict set of rules and rigid bureaucracy and you know exactly what'll happen and how it works before you walk in. You're talking about a completely unique circumstance in multiple ways. How easy or difficult it is will completely depend on the political will of member states and all the different motivations behind that. It's never going to be as simple as 'they'll fast-track us in to get it right up westminster' or 'they'll block us to discourage other independence movements'. Those will play a part but it'll likely come down to internal negotiation within the EU itself as much as anything.

[Guest Jedi]

Cheers Gordon. Agree with your point about the martyrdom aspect. I am certainly unhappy with the way in which the SG have handled the schools issue, care homes and the Salmond enquiry, and worry that there is an element of looking for easy polling support, rather than taking tough choices, as well as the leadership seeming to be a small 'group' in the party. Joanna Cherry has been pretty critical of the leadership, but is hardly a 'Yoon', as some would have you believe.

It is difficult to strike a balance between its 'all going to be plain sailing', to 'its too difficult, might as well not bother then' on Independence.

Ultimately after 14 years of being in office, any govt is going to come in for criticism....doesn't mean that the 'alternatives' Lab, Tory, Lib Dems would be 'better', but any govt also has to be held to account when necessary-that leads to a far healthier politics overall. In the past I think the SNP have been very good at internal debate, talking issues through, albeit that was admittedly easier in a time when you could weigh the Labour vote in most Scottish seats.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Jedi

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Cheers Gordon. Agree with your point about the martyrdom aspect. I am certainly unhappy with the way in which the SG have handled the schools issue, care homes and the Salmond enquiry, and worry that there is an element of looking for easy polling support, rather than taking tough choices, as well as the leadership seeming to be a small 'group' in the party. Joanna Cherry has been pretty critical of the leadership, but is hardly a 'Yoon', as some would have you believe.

It is difficult to strike a balance between its 'all going to be plain sailing', to 'its too difficult, might as well not bother then' on Independence.

Ultimately after 14 years of being in office, any govt is going to come in for criticism....doesn't mean that the 'alternatives' Lab, Tory, Lib Dems would be 'better', but any govt also has to be held to account when necessary-that leads to a far healthier politics overall. In the past I think the SNP have been very good at internal debate, talking issues through, albeit that was admittedly easier in a time when you could weigh the Labour vote in most Scottish seats.

I think this is something that affects all governments. You stay in power long enough, you either take enough decisions that piss enough people off that the number of people pissed off means you're not in power any more or you shy away from enough big decisions that you get accused of playing it safe.

I think it's pretty clear that the SNP have erred much more on the side of play it safe and manage things relatively competently. In the event of independence, that probably isn't the approach that's going to get me enthusiastically voting for them.

Independence is a blessing and a curse for the SNP in terms of governing. It gives them a concentrated base of support that is unlikely to desert them but in attempting to keep the 10-20% or so of the population who're soft independence supporters on side they can't afford to make too many decisions that spook too many horses.

[NotThePars]

The SNP have cracked it though because no matter how shit, difficult, or a damp squib that independence will be it's still going to be better than the shitstorm down south.

[SANTAN]

Here's a question, trolls need not reply. 

If there was a referendum in 2022 and No won, what would your next steps be? 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Here's a question, trolls need not reply. 

If there was a referendum in 2022 and No won, what would your next steps be? 

I’d be somewhat miffed, maybe even disgruntled, certainly not gruntled anyway

 

[welshbairn]

42 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Here's a question, trolls welcome to reply. 

If there was a referendum in 2022 and Yes won, what would your next steps be? 

You first.

P.S. The answer to your unedited question is to start building up momentum for the next one, of course.

Edited December 13, 2020 by welshbairn

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Stormzy said:

Here's a question, trolls need not reply. 

If there was a referendum in 2022 and No won, what would your next steps be? 

Are you asking what individuals who support independence would do?

i'd imagine the resounding answer will be very similar to, for example, a Labour voter after the 2019 general election. Just get on with your life and keep voting SNP/Yes until you get what you want.

What would your next steps be in the event of a Yes vote?

[Glen Sannox]

1 hour ago, Stormzy said:

Here's a question, trolls need not reply. 

If there was a referendum in 2022 and No won, what would your next steps be? 

I’d be fine, but for them, I would imagine it would entail another five years droning on about our English friends and neighbours. That, and going on silly marches with “Boris is a pure fanny” t shirts.

[Wee-Bey]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

The SNP have cracked it though because no matter how shit, difficult, or a damp squib that independence will be it's still going to be better than the shitstorm down south.

This is it in a fucking nutshell and it's utterly bizarre to me that lots and lots of people who deem themselves as clever and sensible still either don't understand it, or pretend that they don't. Yet a genuine fucking idiot like myself finds it glaringly obvious.

Sturgeon and the SNP only have to be slightly better than Johnson and the tories and the incredibly low bar they set.

Stuff like this is a prime example alongside 'but exam passes are down 5%, how can people vote for that woman, she is ruining are country'