When will indyref2 happen?

[SANTAN]

He's basically quite correctly saying that there isn't support for it, if there was majority support then it would happen. I know the 3 or 4 weeks of polls at the tail end of last year must have been awfully exciting but now we're back where we've always been. 

The appetite is not there. 

[Antlion]

19 minutes ago, SANTAN said:

He's basically quite correctly saying that there isn't support for it, if there was majority support then it would happen. I know the 3 or 4 weeks of polls at the tail end of last year must have been awfully exciting but now we're back where we've always been. 

The appetite is not there. 

There wasn’t majority support for Brexit either, so I’m not sure why the little scrotum thought a referendum was justified.

[SANTAN]

13 minutes ago, Antlion said:

There wasn’t majority support for Brexit either, so I’m not sure why the little scrotum thought a referendum was justified.

That's a fair point. Most politicians change their opinions dependant on which way the political winds are blowing anyway and he clearly thinks this line on Indy is palatable, someone else on the thread who I believe supports Indy almost complemented the change in tone. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

24 minutes ago, Antlion said:

There wasn’t majority support for Brexit either, so I’m not sure why the little scrotum thought a referendum was justified.

Brexit had been a festering sore for a long time. A referendum was needed to decide the matter once and for all (a generation). Similarly, with Scottish independence, the decision was made in 2014.

Get over it.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Brexit had been a festering sore for a long time. A referendum was needed to decide the matter once and for all (a generation). Similarly, with Scottish independence, the decision was made in 2014.

Get over it.

Brexit was only an issue in the right wing of the Tory party until they forced Cameron to promise one if he wanted to remain leader. The Independence Referendum was won on a false premise, that a No vote was the only way to stay in the EU. If the 2014 voters had known what would happen 2 years later, we'd be a thriving independent member of the EU by now.

[SANTAN]

38 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Brexit was only an issue in the right wing of the Tory party until they forced Cameron to promise one if he wanted to remain leader. The Independence Referendum was won on a false premise, that a No vote was the only way to stay in the EU. If the 2014 voters had known what would happen 2 years later, we'd be a thriving independent member of the EU by now.

When you say only relevant within the right wing of the Conservative party I think you're getting a bit carried away. A large part of the UKIP appeal and rise of Farage was aimed at hoovering up the working class voters and disenfranchised people and telling them that Labour and Tories were basically the same anyway and if you wanted to MBGA you had to push for Brexit. The whole red wall situation and Corbyn definitely had plenty of typically Labour voters supporting Brexit. It wasn't at the forefront of political discourse until the groundswell got brought to the surface through UKIP and co. 

As for the Scottish Indy referendum you've completely simplified the point. There's plenty of Scottish people that wanted to Remain in the EU that also don't want to leave the UK because of it. Your last sentence isn't accurate imo. Both sides told porkies and used clever language. The thrust of the EU argument centred around an Independent Scotlands ability to actually join the EU, we still have no more certainty on that position. At the time of the referendum it was possible that after a No vote people could have voted Remain whereas in the result of a Yes vote then there would be uncertainty over joining the EU, out of  interest was there proposals for leaving the UK and not joining the EU? 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Brexit had been a festering sore for a long time.

Yet there was no support for it, at least not in the polls. Gove still supported a referendum on it going ahead. Why?

Edited August 1, 2021 by Antlion

[Dawson Park Boy]

16 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Yet there was no support for it, at least not in the polls. Gove still supported a referendum on it going ahead. Why?

This is  testing my memory but, as I recall, Cameron never expected to get an outright majority and he promised an in out EU referendum to keep his Brexiteer supporters on board.

When he got the majority he had no choice.

Anyway, old news. Time to move on.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, SANTAN said:

When you say only relevant within the right wing of the Conservative party I think you're getting a bit carried away. A large part of the UKIP appeal and rise of Farage was aimed at hoovering up the working class voters and disenfranchised people and telling them that Labour and Tories were basically the same anyway and if you wanted to MBGA you had to push for Brexit. The whole red wall situation and Corbyn definitely had plenty of typically Labour voters supporting Brexit. It wasn't at the forefront of political discourse until the groundswell got brought to the surface through UKIP and co. 

As for the Scottish Indy referendum you've completely simplified the point. There's plenty of Scottish people that wanted to Remain in the EU that also don't want to leave the UK because of it. Your last sentence isn't accurate imo. Both sides told porkies and used clever language. The thrust of the EU argument centred around an Independent Scotlands ability to actually join the EU, we still have no more certainty on that position. At the time of the referendum it was possible that after a No vote people could have voted Remain whereas in the result of a Yes vote then there would be uncertainty over joining the EU, out of  interest was there proposals for leaving the UK and not joining the EU? 

I just think the combined vote of liberal English born expats and EU born expats eager to keep freedom of movement, alongside others nervous of Indy but thinking that EU membership was a net positive, would have taken us well over 50% if we'd been told what the plan was for 2016.

[Dawson Park Boy]

41 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I just think the combined vote of liberal English born expats and EU born expats eager to keep freedom of movement, alongside others nervous of Indy but thinking that EU membership was a net positive, would have taken us well over 50% if we'd been told what the plan was for 2016.

I disagree.

I think most English born residents in Scotland would have voted no despite Brexit. I think they still will.

Just my opinion.

 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

This is  testing my memory but, as I recall, Cameron never expected to get an outright majority and he promised an in out EU referendum to keep his Brexiteer supporters on board.

When he got the majority he had no choice.

Anyway, old news. Time to move on.

So Gove believes referendums should happen when they’re in the manifesto of a party who forms the government and can put their pledges before parliament? That’s what you’re saying? Then he believes a Scottish referendum should go ahead. 

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

I just think the combined vote of liberal English born expats and EU born expats eager to keep freedom of movement, alongside others nervous of Indy but thinking that EU membership was a net positive, would have taken us well over 50% if we'd been told what the plan was for 2016.

Of course that could be the case when it's all ifs and buts but in fairness nobody in 2014 knew what would happen in 2016 like that. Cameron was cocky after the Indy vote and thought brexit would be an easy win for his side imo and it could arguably be one of the biggest political missteps in the past 50 years or so. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by SANTAN

[Dawson Park Boy]

10 minutes ago, Antlion said:

So Gove believes referendums should happen when they’re in the manifesto of a party who forms the government and can put their pledges before parliament? That’s what you’re saying? Then he believes a Scottish referendum should go ahead. 

You had one - 2014.

You lost.

[Dawson Park Boy]

Just had some thoughts about Gove’s comments.

Yes, let’s have a referendum.

Bring it on. As soon as possible.

This could be a great time from the unionist perspective.

[Antlion]

23 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

You had one - 2014.

You lost.

We’ve actually never had a referendum on whether we want to be part of an anti-EU state. Gove claims we should have one, though, given he supports them.

[The_Kincardine]

On 01/08/2021 at 22:49, Dawson Park Boy said:

Just had some thoughts about Gove’s comments.

Daft wee Gove is making the same mistake as Dim Dave did in 2012.

You do not partition our unitary nation-state on the say so of a coterie of glengarried-up grievance junkies from the worst schemes of Glasgow, Dundee and N Lanarkshire.

It was idiotic then and is idiotic now.

[Stellaboz]

Daft wee Gove is making the same mistake as Dim Dave did in 2012.
You do not partition our unitary nation-state on the say so of a coterie of glengarried-up grievance junkies from the worst schemes of Glasgow, Dundee and N Lanarkshire.
It was idiotic then and is idiotic now.

Nah I'm all for a UK wide vote on it. The UK wants to decide on the future of itself? Batter on. Let's see how much England wants to stay in the union and how it will still be our own fault when we're seperated.

[The_Kincardine]

13 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

30 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Daft wee Gove is making the same mistake as Dim Dave did in 2012.
You do not partition our unitary nation-state on the say so of a coterie of glengarried-up grievance junkies from the worst schemes of Glasgow, Dundee and N Lanarkshire.
It was idiotic then and is idiotic now.

Nah I'm all for a UK wide vote on it. 

Same. 

Of course there is no telling the outcome but if it ends up with a ScotchNat enclave around the central belt then it's a win win.

[Antlion]

On 03/08/2021 at 21:52, The_Kincardine said:

Same. 

Of course there is no telling the outcome but if it ends up with a ScotchNat enclave around the central belt then it's a win win.

Aren’t you worried the open contempt you face every day from your superiors are work would be exacerbated when their government starts telling them to lovebomb your unwanted jock arse?

[git-intae-thum]

On 01/08/2021 at 21:39, Dawson Park Boy said:

I disagree.

I think most English born residents in Scotland would have voted no despite Brexit. I think they still will.

Just my opinion.

 

Scotgov should maybe copy the UK governments approach to referendums and voter eligibility.