When will indyref2 happen?

[Baxter Parp]

11 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

They don't have a public Scottish-sceptic wing, for example.

Because the entire Conservative and Unionist Party is Scottish-sceptic.

[Guest TheJTS98]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

Because the entire Conservative and Unionist Party is Scottish-sceptic.

Sounds like a nice line. But they're not campaigning to kick us out the union.

The Tories are very pro-Scotland when it comes to the union. And the reasons why are obvious.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, TheJTS98 said:

Sounds like a nice line. But they're not campaigning to kick us out the union.

The Tories are very pro-Scotland when it comes to the union. And the reasons why are obvious.

They're not pro-Scotland, they're pro-union.

[Guest TheJTS98]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

They're not pro-Scotland, they're pro-union.

You're deliberately mis-interpreting.

Find someone else. Cheerio.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, TheJTS98 said:

You're deliberately mis-interpreting.

Find someone else. Cheerio.

I'm not misinterpreting.  The Tories are very pro-Scotland-staying-in-the-union.  They've never been pro-Scotland.

[Baxter Parp]

 

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

The re-animated corpse of Old Man Brown is doing the rounds on breakfast telly this morning talking about how great the Union is.

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

The re-animated corpse of Old Man Brown is doing the rounds on breakfast telly this morning talking about how great the Union is.

The near-failed state you mean?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/24/uk-faces-becoming-failed-state-without-nationwide-reforms-says2/

[Ad Lib]

7 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

Long term, of course they wouldn't. But this is the crux of one of the great unspoken dangers of independence.

Before people pile in, I'm pro-independence and have voted almost exclusively for pro-independence parties in my entire adult life.

Aye, but who did you vote for when you were a child, you dirty Unionist pig?

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

Aye, but who did you vote for when you were a child, you dirty Unionist pig?

You know, when most kids were pretending to have shops and stuff, I can just see you with a pretend voting booth and infuriating your parents with a pretend hustings.

[dirty dingus]

5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

You know, when most kids were pretending to have shops and stuff, I can just see you with a pretend voting booth and infuriating your parents with a pretend hustings.

Playing at being a Liberal politician when I was a kid would get you on the register or a peerage.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

7 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

Long term, of course they wouldn't. But this is the crux of one of the great unspoken dangers of independence.

Before people pile in, I'm pro-independence and have voted almost exclusively for pro-independence parties in my entire adult life.

However, nobody ever talks about the reality of our future relationship with England. Not rUK - the others parts are irrelevant to this historically; to England.

The first part to this is that there is no mainstream English political party that is in favour of Scottish independence. The Tories long had a Euro-sceptic wing with power in the party. They don't have a public Scottish-sceptic wing, for example. The reason for this is clearly that the UK parties are aware of the economic importance of Scotland to the UK as a whole, and the issue of presitge.

If/When Scotland becomes independent, the economic issue won't really change. England will still seek to benefit economically from the resources of the island it dominates. Not a criticism, any country would.

This puts Scotland in a not-dissimilar position to Poland in that its geography means that its independence will be a relatively precarious thing long-term. Poland's sensible governments - not like the crack-pots they have in charge now - have responded to this by trying to hug Germany very tightly to keep them off their back and to give protection from the other historical geographical problem, Russia. Long-term (and states think long-term), I think Poland is fucked in this endeavour.

Scotland can't really play England off against anyone else. And England will play the long game economically to seek eventual control of the island, its resources, and the prestige of controlling its land. Not to mention the issue of controlling sea territory, GIUK gap etc.

For this reason, we're going to have to be very clever about trade. And the long-term security of Scottish independence is going to rely not only on membership of international organisations and alliances, but on making ourselves economically open to England in ways that we probably wouldn't ideally. There'll be a big trade-off involved to buy our security.

I think it's worth it. But it's something we need to talk about.

This is really 19th century thinking.  England isn't likely to invade in a hundred years time. They will attempt to exploit us economically as any bigger country would, but for a short time we could actually be the ones doing the exploiting as we will be in the EU and they won't.

I don't expect that to last though, I have no doubt iEngland will rejoin the EU relatively soon.  

If you're worried about Scotland's independence long-term the way that is dealt with is in the constitution. iScotland would have a constitution, I'm not sure what their plan is but lets say they want a bicameral parliament which to me is the best model, you just have it written that in order for Scotland's independence to be revoked it would require a referendum where 75%+1 people voted for it (could even make it electorate not turnout), and a vote in both chambers where 75%+1 voted for it too. Never gonna happen. 

We will be the part of the British Isles with all the water, gas and oil. Especially water is going to become incredibly important. We should be robust, forward thinking and innovative with our attitude to trade with a tiny bit of altruism thrown in towards the neoliberal shithole developing down south just to show we're good people and bear no hard feelings. And when the time comes we should absolutely support their EU application vocally and vociferously. 

Also, post iScotland rUK will eventually lose its permanent UNSC seat most likely. Which will be quite funny, but what will be even more funny will be when it goes to the EU.  That would give us an international body we are part of that we could rely on to keep any nutcase who ever got into Downing St in check.

[Enigma]

7 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

This puts Scotland in a not-dissimilar position to Poland in that its geography means that its independence will be a relatively precarious thing long-term. Poland's sensible governments - not like the crack-pots they have in charge now - have responded to this by trying to hug Germany very tightly to keep them off their back and to give protection from the other historical geographical problem, Russia. Long-term (and states think long-term), I think Poland is fucked in this endeavour.

Scotland can't really play England off against anyone else. And England will play the long game economically to seek eventual control of the island, its resources, and the prestige of controlling its land. Not to mention the issue of controlling sea territory, GIUK gap etc.

For this reason, we're going to have to be very clever about trade. And the long-term security of Scottish independence is going to rely not only on membership of international organisations and alliances, but on making ourselves economically open to England in ways that we probably wouldn't ideally. There'll be a big trade-off involved to buy our security.

I think it's worth it. But it's something we need to talk about.

I don’t really see how the geopolitical position of Poland, sitting in the middle of the European plain with few geographical barriers to the west or east is comparable to Scotland, the upper half of an island in the Atlantic, but I think what you’ve demonstrated is that Scotland really has two choices now - remain in the UK or independence in Europe. As part of the EU of course we’d be the member or the larger trading body, not the rUK. As a member of NATO, as you’d imagine we’d become, we’d maintain the collective defence assurances as we do today within that alliance.

The old Kingdom of Scotland historically checked possible threats from England by allying with France, breaking down post reformation. Aligning to the EU a modern independent Scotland effectively returns to moderating English dominance over the British Isles by having powerful friends on the continent.

 

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

You could even make those figures 90%, can pick whatever you want its your constitution, then put in protections against some mad Labour government coming in and changing the constitution with procedural blocks and delays meaning it would have to go through courts etc.

To change one word in the US constitution could take thirty years for example and would be bitterly contested all the way.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

19 hours ago, MONKMAN said:

It'll be glorious seeing the bigoted fuckwits both sides of the North Channel apoplectic with rage, as their beloved union dies. 

It will be truly glorious to see their precious union die. 

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

It will be truly glorious to see their precious union die. 

It already had its limbs amputated in the 20s, and its army of servants and carers fled one by one throughout the 20th century, leaving it ranting drunkenly to itself about what a jolly strong chap it used to be. It’s probably kindest that it finally be put down.

[Enigma]

7 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

Scotland can't really play England off against anyone else. And England will play the long game economically to seek eventual control of the island, its resources, and the prestige of controlling its land. Not to mention the issue of controlling sea territory, GIUK gap etc.

Look at the map below and consider where the Scottish territorial waters would be. An independent Scotland in the EU means rUK is almost an EU enclave. rUK does not hold all the aces in controlling sea territory by any means. rUK will be mighty thankful the EEAs of Ireland and France don’t quite touch!

 

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

7 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

It will be truly glorious to see their precious union die. 

When Scotland votes for independence will be the most beautiful time in human history and TV will be filled with piss your pants moments all day every day. I'm talking unionist politicians running across HR floor to feebly attack SNP reps, unionists crying on TV all that shit. I am going to w**k myself into oblivion.

[SANTAN]

7 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

They're not pro-Scotland, they're pro-union.

It's the same thing. To be pro Scotland would be to support the Union. 

We want to be thriving not self harming. 

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

When Scotland votes for independence will be the most beautiful time in human history and TV will be filled with piss your pants moments all day every day. I'm talking unionist politicians running across HR floor to feebly attack SNP reps, unionists crying on TV all that shit. I am going to w**k myself into oblivion.

Could do without that image! However, it is interesting to reflect on the aftermath of the “no” vote in 2014. Yes, there was the triumphalist international embarrassment of extremist bigots goose-stepping through George Square, but I seem to recall the general atmosphere being very flat and gloomy. It was hardly a time of street parties and the majority (whether “no” or “yes”) seemed to be going through a period of anticlimax as the world shrugged its shoulders and looked away.

By contrast, I reckon a “yes” vote would see a massive outpouring of festivity and ongoing international interest in Scotland, followed by a renewal of the arts and increased political activity.