When will indyref2 happen?

[DAFC.]

Have fun telling that to people from those countries. 
Here, this wee diddy Scottish administration can potentially f**k up you and your children's lives for generations and generations every 4 years...
Doesn't wash imo. 

Scottish administration? Scotland’s a country, not a region. It has a Parliament that currently has a majority of Pro-Independent members, that won its latest election on the back of respective manifestos (given it’s a coalition of Greens/SNP) to hold an independence referendum within its current 5 year term.

If they keep winning elections with these mandates, then they absolutely have a case to hold a referendum within the term. That’s how democracy works. Whatever party/coalition of parties in power pledge to do what they say in their manifesto, then that’s what should, under all that is democratic, be enacted. It’s fairly straightforward.

Christ, the overwhelming majority of Unionist candidates in 2021 canvassed with slogans like “Vote [insert Unionist party here] to stop SNP holding a referendum” “Only [insert Unionist party here] can stop there being another referendum”

Now all of a sudden, the SNP don’t have a mandate or right to hold a referendum. I mean, what is it to be?

Advice for Unionists: start getting your own act together, and produce parties that will convince people that they will run the country better, and being in the Union is much better so pro-indy parties aren’t winning constantly at every level in Scotland, ergo having the opportunity to hold independence referendums every decade. It really isn’t that difficult to wrap your head around.

As a pro-indy voter, I really don’t want to see it happening anytime soon, because it’ll just be another No vote. The SNP are utterly hopeless at getting the facts straight, addressing the issue around currency and addressing the transitional issues. People just can’t be arsed with the “awk, it’ll be fine” casual patter with these key issues. 16 months or so for the campaign trail isn’t ideal either tbh.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

39 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

 

Scottish administration? Scotland’s a country, not a region. It has a Parliament that currently has a majority of Pro-Independent members, that won its latest election on the back of respective manifestos (given it’s a coalition of Greens/SNP) to hold an independence referendum within its current 5 year term.

If they keep winning elections with these mandates, then they absolutely have a case to hold a referendum within the term. That’s how democracy works. Whatever party/coalition of parties in power pledge to do what they say in their manifesto, then that’s what should, under all that is democratic, be enacted. It’s fairly straightforward.

Christ, the overwhelming majority of Unionist candidates in 2021 canvassed with slogans like “Vote [insert Unionist party here] to stop SNP holding a referendum” “Only [insert Unionist party here] can stop there being another referendum”

Now all of a sudden, the SNP don’t have a mandate or right to hold a referendum. I mean, what is it to be?

Advice for Unionists: start getting your own act together, and produce parties that will convince people that they will run the country better, and being in the Union is much better so pro-indy parties aren’t winning constantly at every level in Scotland, ergo having the opportunity to hold independence referendums every decade. It really isn’t that difficult to wrap your head around.

As a pro-indy voter, I really don’t want to see it happening anytime soon, because it’ll just be another No vote. The SNP are utterly hopeless at getting the facts straight, addressing the issue around currency and addressing the transitional issues. People just can’t be arsed with the “awk, it’ll be fine” casual patter with these key issues. 16 months or so for the campaign trail isn’t ideal either tbh.

 

I don't know why you quoted me tbh. 

[Wee-Bey]

I think we're finding out that when certain people say 'once in a generation', they really mean 'once in a lifetime'

[Albus Bulbasaur]

5 minutes ago, Ervin H Burrell said:

I think we're finding out that when certain people say 'once in a generation', they really mean 'once in a lifetime'

In the event of a No result in 2023 when do you think the next referendum should be? 

[sophia]

The last Thursday before the next tattie holidays but one.

Friday will be full of beauty.

 

 

Unlike 2014 when I was ashamed of the pictures that were shared and showed us in a poor light 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by sophia

[Wee-Bey]

5 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

In the event of a No result in 2023 when do you think the next referendum should be? 

I have my doubts that there will be a referendum in 2023.

To answer your question though, I'm not really in favour of setting time limits for democratic mandates, a couple of election cycles is fine imo. I'd expect it to be more than that if the next one was a No vote.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

26 minutes ago, Ervin H Burrell said:

I have my doubts that there will be a referendum in 2023.

To answer your question though, I'm not really in favour of setting time limits for democratic mandates, a couple of election cycles is fine imo. I'd expect it to be more than that if the next one was a No vote.

Yup. In fact if a legal referendum can't be won by the Yes side against the current backdrop of a dreadful Prime Minister leading a gang of venal, dreadful and monumentally corrupt Tories enriching themselves and their pals while the electorate is suffering hardship, then you'd be as well parking the whole idea for 40+ years. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

44 minutes ago, sophia said:

The last Thursday before the next tattie holidays but one.

Friday will be full of beauty.

 

 

Unlike 2014 when I was ashamed of the pictures that were shared and showed us in a poor light 

 

 

Those daft lassies couldn't help themselves eh? 

[Zern]

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

In the event of a No result in 2023 when do you think the next referendum should be? 

2010/11 around 7 years

[Benjamin_Nevis]

13 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yeah, because the Chief Executive and all the SBC staff would happily forego the additional salaries for working as counting officers and would be willing to risk prosecution for refusing to carry out their legal duties.

 

12 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I'm not a legal eagle by any shot so if you're confident this is something set in stone that couldn't happen then fair enough, I'm lead to believe this is a route they could potentially go down. 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/lack-snp-councils-could-scupper-27075824

I take it SBC is Scottish Borders Council? Councillors themselves have no actual say in whether or not the Local Authority runs an election/referendum. AFAIK the instruction goes the Council Chief Exec/Chief Officers and they will set up the processes for the who shebang. Chief Officers are considered to be politically neutral posts in the main, so I don't think any of them could come out and effectively say "f**k this tinpot ScotGov shite, we're not doing it".

I think you'd struggle to find a Council Chief Exec anywhere willing to risk being punted from a cosy £150,000+ per year salary. Same goes for other Chief Officers (ie Departmental Directors). Most of these folk are in very comfortable £90-100,000 a year jobs. 

In any case, the whole thing's moot as I highly doubt NS is going to try to hold a "wildcat" referendum. Whatever does happen it will either be agreed by Johnson or legitimised by a court action. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

12 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

In the event of a No result in 2023 when do you think the next referendum should be? 

As the last one was 2014, I would say a 25 year gap is reasonable meaning that we have another in 2039.

[Uncle Monty]

The UK Gov could probably nip this all in the bud without even requiring a legal case. If they gave additional powers to the Scottish Parliament e.g. drugs legislation fully devolved, some powers on immigration (perhaps a Scottish Home Office?), energy policy, benefits and full tax-raising powers. Would that sway enough ‘soft’ Yes voters and put the ball firmly in the Scottish Govt’s court (becomes increasingly difficult to “blame Westminster”). 
 

If they gave that option then perhaps the constitutional debate would die down for the foreseeable.

And yes, I know, it’s straight from the Gordon Brown school of thought.

Other (potentially chaotic) direction would be to add further options to the ballot

• Yes to independence 

• No to independence 

• Further powers for the Scottish Government

• Scotland (within UK) allowed to rejoin EU (EU-Greenland equivalent)

• Abolish devolution to Scotland…it’d be interesting to see if MPs/MSPs from any of the main parties would campaign for this (I wouldn’t put it past Rees-Mogg)

[DAFC.]

49 minutes ago, Uncle Monty said:

The UK Gov could probably nip this all in the bud without even requiring a legal case. If they gave additional powers to the Scottish Parliament e.g. drugs legislation fully devolved, some powers on immigration (perhaps a Scottish Home Office?), energy policy, benefits and full tax-raising powers. Would that sway enough ‘soft’ Yes voters and put the ball firmly in the Scottish Govt’s court (becomes increasingly difficult to “blame Westminster”). 
 

If they gave that option then perhaps the constitutional debate would die down for the foreseeable.

And yes, I know, it’s straight from the Gordon Brown school of thought.

Other (potentially chaotic) direction would be to add further options to the ballot

• Yes to independence 

• No to independence 

• Further powers for the Scottish Government

• Scotland (within UK) allowed to rejoin EU (EU-Greenland equivalent)

• Abolish devolution to Scotland…it’d be interesting to see if MPs/MSPs from any of the main parties would campaign for this (I wouldn’t put it past Rees-Mogg)

We were promised "close to federalism" back in 2014. They will never, ever give Scotland anywhere close to those powers you have noted. Not very many "soft Yes" voters as well tbh. Think it's more soft No's that are winning this next referendum for No because they will never be convinced with the currency issue. 

[AndyM]

14 hours ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

 

Those daft lassies couldn't help themselves eh? 

Those daft lassies have more guts and principles than any of the pissed up, far right filth that spent 2 hours screaming at them in George Square  that night.

[TonyHendrix]

19 hours ago, sophia said:

The last Thursday before the next tattie holidays but one.

Friday will be full of beauty.

 

 

Unlike 2014 when I was ashamed of the pictures that were shared and showed us in a poor light 

 

That was a total scandal.

This I found even more sickening.

https://youtu.be/cSxddgJXxmE

[TonyHendrix]

5 hours ago, DAFC. said:

We were promised "close to federalism" back in 2014. They will never, ever give Scotland anywhere close to those powers you have noted. Not very many "soft Yes" voters as well tbh. Think it's more soft No's that are winning this next referendum for No because they will never be convinced with the currency issue. 

The currency issues will be in the manifesto,it's a long way until October 2023.

[Detournement]

A very simple point that a lot of independence supporters struggle with. 

Obviously Sturgeon can't give any specific details on macro economic issues that would improve the lives of ordinary Scots because it would shine a light on her shitty neoliberal administration. 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Detournement

[Zern]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

A very simple point that a lot of independence supporters struggle with. 

Obviously Sturgeon can't give any specific details on macro economic issues that would improve the lives of ordinary Scots because it would shine a light on her shitty neoliberal administration. 

 

They jointly announced that this beginning of the indy campaign and presented the first document and said there would be a series of papers to follow dealing with each issue in turn. Can't say i struggle with that.

[TonyHendrix]

I noticed this poll from a Jambos forum.

Quite surprised with the latest result so far,i was talking to 4 Hibees fans a week past on Sunday,3 are for Scotland staying in the union and one's for Independence. 

Like Bob Dylan once sang 'the times they are a changin.'

 

Should Scotland be an independent country? 291 members have voted

1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes

 189

No

 91

Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot.

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, Zern said:

They jointly announced that this beginning of the indy campaign and presented the first document and said there would be a series of papers to follow dealing with each issue in turn. Can't say i struggle with that.

The issue is saying we will be like Denmark or Austria as if it's just a matter of having the correct mental attitude and not down to economic and political historical factors. 

We won't be Austria or Denmark we will be Scotland becoming independent during a period of European economic decline without a national currency or central bank. 

And on top of the shite economic conditions we don't have a single major party which favours working class people over big business so it's guaranteed that the first thing our independent government will do is f**k us in the arse. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Detournement