When will indyref2 happen?

[Fide]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

It's not doing me any harm!

And there, friends, is your Britnat mentality.  I'm alright Jack, f**k the rest of you.

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, DublinMagyar said:

What's the point?

Well the point is to prove that your post has substance and isn't just another baseless put down, that was all !

[McSpreader]

16 minutes ago, Fide said:

And there, friends, is your Britnat mentality.  I'm alright Jack, f**k the rest of you.

It may well be my mentality, I can't speak for other folk though. Britnat or otherwise. 

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

It's not doing me any harm!

What harm was Brussels doing you? Please be very specific.

[Weesiecodal]

2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

I actually did get your point, I was making the point that for me and many others it isn't so cut and dried.

I , personally, am not bothered that Westminster treats Sturgeon with the contempt she deserves. She clearly has no intention of engaging constructively with Westminster and  It's fair to say they aren't going to waste their time trying to placate the implacable.

Sturgeon is only interested in the ultimate goal and has sold Scotland short in pursuing that end to the detriment of everything else.

The UK is treating us the same now as it was 30 years ago with the exception of all those powers devolved to Holyrood so I suggest they aren't doing anything different that is worth getting upset about, although I can see how the SNP is changing the narrative to suit their ends. Obviously a lot of Scots are open to being persuaded that we are getting sich a raw deal all of a sudden but to me that's just horsefeathers.

I can't see any material benefit to pursuing independence over more devolved powers, certainly not until we know how Brexit pans out...What's the rush?

I don't think you did get my point, otherwise you wouldn't be so wrapped up in the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon. How significant a force will they be after independence? Who knows, but I'd guess they won't be nearly as powerful as they are at the moment.

Im not that bothered that Westminster treats her with contempt either. She's capable enough of standing up for herself. I AM however, bothered at the undisguised, blatant contempt they are showing for the whole of Scotland. You may be right that it's no different to how they treated us 30 years ago. The difference now though, is that people here have seen and heard for themselves just exactly how little their voices matter. That's not going to change, so the longer we leave it, the weaker we will become. 

 

A genuine question though. Does it honestly not bother you that a government which is supposed to represent four nations just carry on regardless, even with the perilous situation in NI? I watched the debates last week about exiting the EU, and at one point, Dr Alasdair MacDonnell (SDLP) said to Mark Harper (Tory) "Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand how serious this issue is? Does he not understand that he will not have a UK if he keeps going on with arrogance, with intolerance and with insensitivity? We spent 30 years getting a peace process together. We do not want to see any more dead bodies. Quite simply, what is going on here, with the intolerance that some Members are showing, is scaring me. I am asking myself why I am in this place at all."  

Does that not make you think that perhaps Westminster are NOT acting in the best interests of the people of the United Kingdom? That in fact, the kingdom is far from being united? 

[McSpreader]

11 minutes ago, Antlion said:

What harm was Brussels doing you? Please be very specific.

It was failing to deal with the migrant crisis. It failed to deal with the Euro crisis. It failed to listen to the  UK's concerns when Cameron went over there . It had morphed from a trading arrangement between sovereign states to a political organisation whose purpose is to create a single  European state without express permission from electors.  It has ambitions to be  another global Superpower including having an EU Army . It has a single market arrangement that is effectively a closed shop designed to protect inefficient  economies and deny access from outside the EU. Too many of the big decisions are taken by unelected bureaucrats. The Eu pokes it's nose into foreign affairs that are not it's concern, i.e. Ukraine. It fails to respond to criticism and never changes tack even though there is growing disenchantment throughout Europe. It's in Belgium. 

[Antlion]

10 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

It was failing to deal with the migrant crisis. It failed to deal with the Euro crisis. It failed to listen to the  UK's concerns when Cameron went over there . It had morphed from a trading arrangement between sovereign states to a political organisation whose purpose is to create a single  European state without express permission from electors.  It has ambitions to be  another global Superpower including having an EU Army . It has a single market arrangement that is effectively a closed shop designed to protect inefficient  economies and deny access from outside the EU. Too many of the big decisions are taken by unelected bureaucrats. The Eu pokes it's nose into foreign affairs that are not it's concern, i.e. Ukraine. It fails to respond to criticism and never changes tack even though there is growing disenchantment throughout Europe. It's in Belgium. 

How has any of this (some of which hasn't happened) actually affected you? I mean, pointing out it has ambitions to follow in the UK's footsteps by creating a single currency and single army superstate imply that the UK is affecting you more already. Rhetoric won't help you here.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Antlion

[McSpreader]

8 minutes ago, Weesiecodal said:

I don't think you did get my point, otherwise you wouldn't be so wrapped up in the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon. How significant a force will they be after independence? Who knows, but I'd guess they won't be nearly as powerful as they are at the moment.

Im not that bothered that Westminster treats her with contempt either. She's capable enough of standing up for herself. I AM however, bothered at the undisguised, blatant contempt they are showing for the whole of Scotland. You may be right that it's no different to how they treated us 30 years ago. The difference now though, is that people here have seen and heard for themselves just exactly how little their voices matter. That's not going to change, so the longer we leave it, the weaker we will become. 

 

A genuine question though. Does it honestly not bother you that a government which is supposed to represent four nations just carry on regardless, even with the perilous situation in NI? I watched the debates last week about exiting the EU, and at one point, Dr Alasdair MacDonnell (SDLP) said to Mark Harper (Tory) "Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand how serious this issue is? Does he not understand that he will not have a UK if he keeps going on with arrogance, with intolerance and with insensitivity? We spent 30 years getting a peace process together. We do not want to see any more dead bodies. Quite simply, what is going on here, with the intolerance that some Members are showing, is scaring me. I am asking myself why I am in this place at all."  

Does that not make you think that perhaps Westminster are NOT acting in the best interests of the people of the United Kingdom? That in fact, the kingdom is far from being united? 

I agree that there are areas of concern. I'm not sure what you mean 'carry on regardless'. If that's Brexit then I'm afraid they have no choice but to carry on regardless and try to mitigate any difficult anomalies that crop up. 

I'm concerned about NI and the effect of Brexit on The Good Friday Agreement, but,surely, if we are capable of creating and applying  TGFA then working out it's context within Brexit shouldn't be beyond us. 

I think if we see every obstacle as another reason crumble and burn then Yes, everything will f*ck up. I guess it's about our character and our willingness to pull together for the greater good. That IS the territory we are in and rushing to independence is all about SNP expediency rather than any real injustice, unless we really are that thin skinned and precious about our place in the world. We are 8% of the UK and I think we take up  a lot more than 8% of the political narrative of the four nation state.

Btw, those voices that don't matter are not belonging to everyone in Scotland. You don't speak for all 5 million Scottish folk....I can promise you that much.

[Weesiecodal]

36 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

I agree that there are areas of concern. I'm not sure what you mean 'carry on regardless'. If that's Brexit then I'm afraid they have no choice but to carry on regardless and try to mitigate any difficult anomalies that crop up. 

I'm concerned about NI and the effect of Brexit on The Good Friday Agreement, but,surely, if we are capable of creating and applying  TGFA then working out it's context within Brexit shouldn't be beyond us. 

I think if we see every obstacle as another reason crumble and burn then Yes, everything will f*ck up. I guess it's about our character and our willingness to pull together for the greater good. That IS the territory we are in and rushing to independence is all about SNP expediency rather than any real injustice, unless we really are that thin skinned and precious about our place in the world. We are 8% of the UK and I think we take up  a lot more than 8% of the political narrative of the four nation state.

Btw, those voices that don't matter are not belonging to everyone in Scotland. You don't speak for all 5 million Scottish folk....I can promise you that much.

I only speak for myself mate, and have never purported to speak for anyone else. Like it or not though, (and obviously you don't) the SNP represent more Scottish people in both parliaments than any party ever has before.

I'm truly astonished at your flippancy at the NI situation. I'm not sure of your age, but if you're a youngster, I suppose you may not remember the horrors of the troubles, and the massive amount of time and effort it took to reach that agreement. Thats what I'm hoping anyway, that you're too young to remember 

[Fide]

6 hours ago, McSpreader said:

 We are 8% of the UK and I think we take up  a lot more than 8% of the political narrative of the four nation state.

 

In other words, shut up and eat your cereal.

You are the epitome of forelock tugging servitude.  You should ask Theresa May if she'd like you to stick a brush up your arse.

[McSpreader]

3 hours ago, Fide said:

In other words, shut up and eat your cereal.

You are the epitome of forelock tugging servitude.  You should ask Theresa May if she'd like you to stick a brush up your arse.

I love the way Nationalists  like to start every post with 'In other words'

Which is the same as saying  ( In other words,lol)....'.I'm too thick to understand the subtleties and nuances of your post so I'll revert to my dumb f**k cliches'

 

[Fide]

1 minute ago, McSpreader said:

I love the way Nationalists  like to start every post with 'In other words'

Which is the same as saying  ( In other words,lol)....'.I'm too thick to understand the subtleties and nuances of your post so I'll revert to my dumb f**k cliches'

 

Lawlz.

Your posts have all the subtleties and nuances of an elephant on poppers.

Sit down, son.

[McSpreader]

9 hours ago, Weesiecodal said:

I only speak for myself mate, and have never purported to speak for anyone else. Like it or not though, (and obviously you don't) the SNP represent more Scottish people in both parliaments than any party ever has before.

I'm truly astonished at your flippancy at the NI situation. I'm not sure of your age, but if you're a youngster, I suppose you may not remember the horrors of the troubles, and the massive amount of time and effort it took to reach that agreement. Thats what I'm hoping anyway, that you're too young to remember 

It's not flippancy and I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I can only assume it's because you've taken a stance against me.

I'm used to that on here tbh. Aggressive responses are the stock in trade for  the majority of Nationalists.

I absolutely do not like the SNP in Holyrood fucking up this country root and branch, buying off the middle class votes with little incentives whilst letting the poorer in society stagnate. But I make no secret of that.

And of course I'm fully aware of the horrors of the Troubles. 

[DublinMagyar]

It's not flippancy and I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I can only assume it's because you've taken a stance against me.
I'm used to that on here tbh. Aggressive responses are the stock in trade for  the majority of Nationalists.
I absolutely do not like the SNP in Holyrood fucking up this country root and branch, buying off the middle class votes with little incentives whilst letting the poorer in society stagnate. But I make no secret of that.
And of course I'm fully aware of the horrors of the Troubles. 

I am also astonished at your flippancy towards the NI situation. However I know you are old enough to know better.

[Weesiecodal]

11 hours ago, McSpreader said:

I'm concerned about NI and the effect of Brexit on The Good Friday Agreement, but,surely, if we are capable of creating and applying  TGFA then working out it's context within Brexit shouldn't be beyond us. 

I think if we see every obstacle as another reason crumble and burn then Yes, everything will f*ck up. I guess it's about our character and our willingness to pull together for the greater good.

THIS is the reason I accused you of flippancy. This kind of "Oh well, they've done it before, they can do it again, never mind, let's get on with what WE want" kind of attitude. Like it's no biggie, like if it fails, it will be because they're not trying hard enough. 

11 hours ago, McSpreader said:

for the greater good.

For the greater good of whom? Certainly not for the greater good of the people living in NI. Not for the ordinary folk who have become used to a more peaceful way of life, wandering up the street to their local shop for bread and milk without rifle-toting soldiers milling around. They were beginning to forget the almost daily occurrence of terrorist kidnappings, shootings, assaults and killings. They were beginning to slip way from the fear that their teenage sons and daughters would be sucked into the world of republican/loyalist hatred and "join the fight". They were beginning to move past the fear of going to large gatherings and always wondering if it will be safe, where would be the best place to stand in case something happens? 

But it's still there, under the surface. There ARE still kidnappings and shootings going on. There are still neighbourhoods that Catholics or Protestants wouldn't feel comfortable walking through, and it wouldn't take a huge amount to fire it all up again. 

And your answer is to carry on, because you, NI, didn't really vote to stay in the EU - it was a UK vote, not a four nation vote. So, I understand your concern, but that's the way it is...... now move along! 

 

As for your personal accusations - if you read back my posts, you'll see I'm not a nationalist, I'm not an SNP supporter, I haven't at any point been aggressive towards you, and I hadn't taken any stand against you. I haven't insulted you at any time, or belittled your opinion in any way. If people can't debate without getting into personal insults then I'm not interested in getting involved. I left the playground a long time ago.

I was genuinely putting forward points highlighting Westminster's complete disregard for the smaller nations. However, I see now how foolish I've been. Sorry for wasting your time. Carry on as normal 

[philyerboots]

 

Thank fvck it will never happen . These clowns aint got a clue.

[MarkoRaj]

Democracy is only really relevant at a local level. 
At National level you will never be properly represented because the constituency is too large and the issues too convoluted.
At National level the polticians are  too  removed from the electorate and so shackled to party politics that the people are not represented.
'Scotland' as an entity is not being misrepresented because there are 5million people here all with differing views, needs and desires , but it's people will always be misrepresented because our representation is fundamentally wrong  and needs to be more dynamic at a local level. You will never get that with the SNP because they will always centralise power because of their inherent need to control your life and your mindset.

What an absolute cretin this guy is

[jakedee]

Thank fvck it will never happen . These clowns aint got a clue.

Yup,oil,wish we'd never found the stuff,curse so it is.

[MarkoRaj]

 
Thank fvck it will never happen . These clowns aint got a clue.

Surprising news. I mean I know the oil price has drastically dropped and they've been dealing with a crisis for the last 2 years but it is truly astonishing to read that a prediction made before it all happened is wrong. We are so blessed to have the UK looking after the oil for us all these years

[jakedee]

Democracy is only really relevant at a local level.
At National level you will never be properly represented because the constituency is too large and the issues too convoluted.
At National level the polticians are too removed from the electorate and so shackled to party politics that the people are not represented.
'Scotland' as an entity is not being misrepresented because there are 5million people here all with differing views, needs and desires , but it's people will always be misrepresented because our representation is fundamentally wrong and needs to be more dynamic at a local level. You will never get that with the SNP because they will always centralise power because of their inherent need to control your life and your mindset.

Can the same argument then be made for the UK's place in the EU,or is that somehow different ?