Ken Fitlike Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You care for way too much to be an alloa fan Nice try though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You care for way too much to be an alloa fan Nice try though I'm quite convinced he's an Alloa fan, but why would that matter in the slightest anyway? Is what he's saying not more important? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugna Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) I'm quite convinced he's an Alloa fan, but why would that matter in the slightest anyway? Is what he's saying not more important? This is exactly what I was thinking. Why would the facts change if I were a Bino, for example?I've tried to trace everything back to facts, and there seems to me to be quite a glaring anomaly in the club's ability to finance itself; but little reporting of this apparent anomaly (which is significant in the medium-to-long term) compared to the column-inches devoted to matters on the park (improved this season, but relatively insignificant when compared to the prospects for survival). We have a fiscally very sensible chairman at the Indodrill, but if we didn't that would concern me a lot more than trying to win the play-offs again this season. Club survival first; success on the park a distant second. The other way around is obviously a recipe for disaster. Unless Dave King makes a statement to the contrary, of course. Edited October 6, 2015 by sugna 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Why is it always just about King with you guys?, King owns 14%, the other power block own significantly more, they are all experienced businessmen and have a considerable say (with seats on the board) in how things are being ran. You seem determined to ignore the significant reduction in (1) playing squad costs (2) Management team costs (3) most importantly director costs, these guys are working for nothing right now. You rattle on about the accounts but keep mentioning this £10m income / cash at bank, the accounts from last year clearly show over double that income, it is not all about ST money, Match day income will also have significantly increased due to the bumper crowds we are now enjoying. It is hard to take your points seriously given your determination to ignore these obvious facts, your argument seems to be 'but king is a liar' Rangers will need funding next year, this has never been in doubt nor denied, I envisage more interest free loans from the major shareholders, followed by a significant share option that will raise around £20-£25m. On what basis do you think it will raise anything like that total? Who would put the money in? It would have to be existing holders and Rangers fans, as there are no independent institutional type investors who would be willing to touch the company now. Going by past performance that would suggest you will do very well to get half that amount. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I was wondering where they're going to find that level of investment, too - recent history, combined with the, shall we say "chequered", financial history of at least one of the main players would suggest to me that it's not the soundest investment in the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Like 53 said earlier, it is all guess work at this stage, this applies to who and how much. You will guess low, no surprise there, I seem to recall similar guesses before the last share issue. Guess work yes, but educated guesswork based on historic performance. The last issue raise roughly £3m, and the IPO raised around £22m, of which £17m was reportedly from institutions who at this point have either bailed or will not reinvest. If you want to raise another £20m, you either need the fans to step up to a level that they have never stepped up to before, or you need some very well off Rangers fans to simply write off cash, which again they have not done before. Given the ongoing legal cases and the potential ownership issues in relation to Ibrox, Murray Park and the other assets that could revert back to BDO, you don't actually know what you are investing in in terms of whether the club/company is worth anything like the money you are throwing at it. You would either need to be mental, or stupid, to through another £20m at it right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Guess work based on the fact you are a celtic fan and are desperate to see us fail, backed up by similar failed predictions over the past 3 years....admin s by xmas 2012 2013 2014 2015 anyone? Guess work based on past performance and 10 years working for several stockbrokers and investment banks dealing for a very large part of the time with Open Offers and Rights Issues. I have not predicted admin on any occasion, though it is fair to point out that had it not been for loans from your directors and from Sports Direct, then admin very likely would have happened. Can you provide any evidence at all that supports the notion that £20m is a realistic target to reach, based on asset value and future returns? As a financial investment, almost every football club in the world is a horrendous risk, but Rangers even more so with all that is going on around them. Do you disagree? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugna Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Why is it always just about King with you guys?, King owns 14%, the other power block own significantly more, they are all experienced businessmen and have a considerable say (with seats on the board) in how things are being ran. You seem determined to ignore the significant reduction in (1) playing squad costs (2) Management team costs (3) most importantly director costs, these guys are working for nothing right now. You rattle on about the accounts but keep mentioning this £10m income / cash at bank, the accounts from last year clearly show over double that income, it is not all about ST money, Match day income will also have significantly increased due to the bumper crowds we are now enjoying. It is hard to take your points seriously given your determination to ignore these obvious facts, your argument seems to be 'but king is a liar' Rangers will need funding next year, this has never been in doubt nor denied, I envisage more interest free loans from the major shareholders, followed by a significant share option that will raise around £20-£25m. I only mentioned King's record in so much detail to refute the view that his statements could be taken as fact. No other reason. When trying to get to the facts of the matter it's not useful to allow statements by a known liar to have any significant weight. I mentioned Green and Whyte, too, for comparison: in the past, fans have relied on their statements to assuage doubts coming from pretty reliable sources; and apart from scale, neither of them is now seen as much more reliable than King. So in summary, King references were just to avoid any reliance on what King might say, as that would muddy the factual waters. It is indeed not all about ST money: but we have some reasonable longitudinal data relating to things like cash burn and ST income at least as a correlation; and without making any assumptions (pro or con), they appear to indicate that more money is needed quite soon. Also, it seems to be a fiction that loans to be converted can continue, as the proportional nature of a share issue appears to bound that. Unsecured loans that are not convertible to equity... those are termed "donations", and aren't that common. I'm happy to be corrected on the "broad-brush numbers"; but I don't know which direction that correction would take them. More seriously, a mechanism for topping-up, even to season's end, doesn't yet seem plausible. Donations apart. More puzzlingly for me, and perhaps others: given that non-Rangers fans, and some Rangers fans, see a significant difficulty with surviving this season, why is it that the wider Rangers fan base isn't panicking and agitating for change/answers? This is by far the least sustainable position the club has been in, but for some reason the majority of fans appear to be more on-side with the current board than with the previous ones. Can it really just be having " Rangers men" in charge, and better performances on the park? Those are the only things I can see but they seen pretty irrelevant compared to the prospects for survival. Anyway this thread was intended not as a stick to beat Rangers or their fans, but as an attempt to fathom the financial position and to find a means of squaring the circle. I can't yet see one, wishful thinking aside. I had a quick look on Rangers Media about this, and there's a pretty smart guy on there who comes up with similar conclusions to mine (probably coincidence): seeing out the season requires something extraordinary to happen... but what might that be? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Fitlike Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I suppose the term 'The Loan Rangers' has been used before? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Guess work based on the fact you are a celtic fan and are desperate to see us fail, backed up by similar failed predictions over the past 3 years....admin s by xmas 2012 2013 2014 2015 anyone?Oh dear. You really are upset watching a Tribute Act. Probably never get over watching your Club die and you done hee haw about it. Meanwhile.. The Newcunto FC Lol Nae Surrender Edited October 6, 2015 by shull -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythstoliveby Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Looks like even the most blinkered of rangers fans at least admit that the finances need some shoring up soon. I still think it will be sticking-plasters in the hope that SPFL finances will steady the ship. Sooooooooooo, Tedi (and cohorts) will you now exist that is is actually YOU that needs us??????????????????????? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 It is hard to take your points seriously given your determination to ignore these obvious facts, your argument seems to be 'but king is a liar' To be fair, it is a really strong, robust and unarguable argument. Not sure what the difficulty you have with this is about. If you met Dave King in the street, he wapped his cock out and said "this is a strawberry lollipop, suck it for me Tedi" you'd be down on your hands and knees sooking away in a heart beat pining "gumf, gumf, ooh it tastes like strawberries Dave hmmmm" wouldn't you? You blinkered sycophant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Dave King...'there's not a team like the traditionalrangers' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Oh the Irony Don't speak with your mouth full. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythstoliveby Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Oh the Irony Is there any setting we can use on this forum to stop Rangers fans using the word 'irony' because it would appear that they don't know the meaning of the word! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You care for way too much to be an alloa fan Nice try though It's pretty obvious, are there any green and grey yins out there who aren't financial experts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Looks like even the most blinkered of rangers fans at least admit that the finances need some shoring up soon. us[/b]??????????????????????? I'm sure that Dave King and others have consistently said that the finances would need topping up. Do us a favour and stop regurgitating the same old pish. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugna Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 It's pretty obvious, are there any green and grey yins out there who aren't financial experts?I think this is what Cowan and Cosgrove go on about: for a lot of Celtic and Rangers fans, if you appear critical in any way of one then you must be affiliated with the other. If you fall into neither camp, this false dichotomy appears quite baffling (as it does to me right now). Perhaps I can clarify by saying that Celtic are never in my top 3 dozen SPFL sides; and they are very seldom in my top 40. They make that roster when in Europe and on a few other occasions. BUT even if they were my own team, that would have no effect WHATSOEVER on the gist of what I perceive to be the financial status. How could the former possibly affect the latter? I just can't comprehend optional realities that are dependent on one's wishes: you'd be as well not being an atheist. Back to a non-preferred reality. I've seen an updated estimate that the sale of retained shares could realise 40m x 25p = £10m. Seems about right, and could just about clear existing debts. If I've got the wrong end of the stick then we can expect the accounts to be published nice and early, with no going-concern warning, and perhaps a re-listing on the ISDX as promised (because the main"stopper" there could well be proof of funds - the same criterion as for avoiding the warning in the accounts). So the accounts might be a decent objective gauge of financial health. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Fitlike Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) I'm sure that Dave King and others have consistently said that the finances would need topping up. Do us a favour and stop regurgitating the same old pish. regurgitating the same old pish. (dear pot, best wishes, the kettle) that should be the motto on the Bennett coat of arms. I doubt if you would want it in latin though. Edited October 6, 2015 by Ken Fitlike 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythstoliveby Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I'm sure that Dave King and others have consistently said that the finances would need topping up. Do us a favour and stop regurgitating the same old pish. Is there any setting we can use on this forum to stop Rangers fans using the word 'irony' because it would appear that they don't know the meaning of the word! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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