topcat(The most tip top) Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 . Your argument strikes me as 'My team missed the top 6 last season and I'm still beelin'.I think you may be onto something The irony being that as St Mirren have failed 8 times in the last 12 to make it into the top 9 they are amongst the chief beneficiaries of us squeezing in an extra two teams 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Jimmain said: This. We are not some snowbound country that languishes in frost bound stasis for weeks on end...we get 'weather'. Some of it bad enough to cause cancellations. The split is pointless. If some games need to be called off now and then, call them off ffs. Think you're getting the split mixed up with the winter break A96. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jimmain said: This. We are not some snowbound country that languishes in frost bound stasis for weeks on end...we get 'weather'. Some of it bad enough to cause cancellations. The split is pointless. If some games need to be called off now and then, call them off ffs. I'm on about the winter break. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmain Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, TheScarf said: I'm on about the winter break. I meant the break...it's Monday, I'm in the office and I haven't had coffee yet... For the record I hate the split as well. At the moment I hate everything... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 04/02/2022 at 20:49, BFTD said: There's always someone willing to trumpet the ephebophile defence when someone high-profile gets the jail for noncery, and I'm never quite sure what they think they're gaining from it. Depends who's trumpeting it. If it's some social worker or the like and they're making clear the distinction and how the safeguarding aspects of both are completely different and should be looked at separately then, yeah, fine. If it's a guy on the internet that person should not be trusted to live near a high school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 The split is one of the few things that Scottish Football has gotten right over the past 20 years. It's excellent. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 20 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: increase the size of the league. However, you’d need to have a league of 20 in order to keep the same amount of games without some “lop sided imbalance” in fixtures being home/away. 20 teams would obviously mean that basically every half decent side in the country is in the same division, and would deprive us of the joy of seeing Falkirk in the third tier. First of all I think you are doing a disservice as to how shite Falkirk are right now. Even two leagues of 20 could well see them duking it out with Forres Mechs and Dunbar in the 3rd tier. Also, for everyone else, the number of games aint as much of an issues, we could increase cup competitions to make up the shortfall for instance, but the telly demands four old firm games a year. I think a better solution would be a league of 16 but the top four have semi final/final play off for the title. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 10 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I think a better solution would be a league of 16 but the top four have semi final/final play off for the title. If we were inventing football today, this is undoubtedly what we'd have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I have mixed feelings about the split. One the one hand, it can produce some exciting finishes as teams can make a late run for Europe or get sucked into a relegation battle thanks to the head to head aspect of the last part of the season. On the other hand, it feels convoluted and nearly always produces an imbalanced fixture list which isn't fair to some sides. Denmark's split is better, but they only play 32 games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I'd also prefer a 16 team league, but that's for another thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Lester Freamon said: I have mixed feelings about the split. One the one hand, it can produce some exciting finishes as teams can make a late run for Europe or get sucked into a relegation battle thanks to the head to head aspect of the last part of the season. On the other hand, it feels convoluted and nearly always produces an imbalanced fixture list which isn't fair to some sides. Denmark's split is better, but they only play 32 games. The fixture list is slightly unfair. But I think this angle is over-done. Unfairness is built into football. Some teams miss important players for big games through injury. That's not really fair. Referees make mistakes. That's not fair. You might have to play an easy game against a shite team in weather conditions that are so shite they act as a leveller and cost you points, which isn't really fair. Some teams can go out and sign players for million of pounds while others can't. That's not really fair. The unfairness of the fixture list is pretty trivial. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 33 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: It's already been explained @Ricthat the split was introduced to stop fixtures ballooning from 36 to 44. In other words, it is "a calendar thing", not "a financial thing" as you assert. The financial benefits for those finishing in 1-6th are incidental. It all comes from the expansion of the league, yes, but the split is specifically there so that clubs can get the maximum games they can to fit into the calendar, and they do that because it's financially beneficial to them. The failure was to build the current system on the old system of playing each other 4 times, while those in the top divisions didn't want a much larger league because it would hit them financially. 39 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: As a self confessed fan of the split, I disagree. It creates competition, but I think that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. Having the sides at the bottom scrap it out against each other in the final days of the season is far better than having them get thumped off Hearts, Rangers and Celtic to see them down. It gives you a lot of big games - which there may be a financial element of, but it’s also exciting from a sporting point of view. The other point is that we don’t, in a country our size, have much alternative. The options are either: Another full round of fixtures after 33 for 44 games, which is a nonsense imo. decrease the size of the league to 10 and play four rounds of fixtures, which would lose you two. increase the size of the league. However, you’d need to have a league of 20 in order to keep the same amount of games without some “lop sided imbalance” in fixtures being home/away. 20 teams would obviously mean that basically every half decent side in the country is in the same division, and would deprive us of the joy of seeing Falkirk in the third tier. the current system. I think that the current system is about as decent as we could hope for, although I’d rather 2nd bottom went down automatically and 3rd bottom went into the playoffs. Then replicate that throughout the SPFL. The split is trying to fit a circle into a square slot, sure it'll fit, but it's not good. Allowing a league where the 7th placed team has more points that the 6th placed team is fundamentally wrong. People may say, but they (the different splits) are playing against each other, I would counter that the league fixtures are already manipulated in order to try and resolve the imbalance, remove the split and there is nothing to stop those fixtures still remaining the same. What's more you can have 2 relegation rivals who may have an unfair split on home/away games. Another reason why the split is a bad idea. The whole issue is, of course, wrapped up in the "reconstruction" argument, which has a litany of agendas from all clubs meaning it never gets an objective hearing, only high pitched screaming from all involved. However it is really important to accept that pointing out the problems with the split doesn't automatically mean I must come up with another solution. There is a lot to discuss regarding the split, but this isn't the thread to do it on. If somebody *bump*s the old reconstruction thread (one without a Budge involvement) you'll find I have written similar (and more) there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Some teams register dozens of players illegally over many years and get to keep the trophies they illegitimately won with them. That's not fair either. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Ric said: Allowing a league where the 7th placed team has more points that the 6th placed team is fundamentally wrong. People may say, but they (the different splits) are playing against each other, I would counter that the league fixtures are already manipulated in order to try and resolve the imbalance, remove the split and there is nothing to stop those fixtures still remaining the same. What's more you can have 2 relegation rivals who may have an unfair split on home/away games. Another reason why the split is a bad idea. No it's not. They are no longer competing against each other, so it's a mere arithmetical curiosity. This is another of those acid tests that @craigkilliementions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I think a better solution would be a league of 16 but the top four have semi final/final play off for the title. I hate the idea of American-style title play-offs, but it's frankly the only way to add any kind of point to the Scottish league title. The Premiership now only exists to keep Celtgers' players match fit for their European adventures. But aye, reconstruction thread for this pish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: The fixture list is slightly unfair. But I think this angle is over-done. Unfairness is built into football. Some teams miss important players for big games through injury. That's not really fair. Referees make mistakes. That's not fair. You might have to play an easy game against a shite team in weather conditions that are so shite they act as a leveller and cost you points, which isn't really fair. Some teams can go out and sign players for million of pounds while others can't. That's not really fair. The unfairness of the fixture list is pretty trivial. Those are things we have little or no control over. The fixture list is. The idea that if 2 teams are battling to avoid relegation that one plays 18 at home, while the other plays 20 including 3 times at home to their rivals is 'fine' because other stuff like weather can be unfair is bizarre. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Just now, Ranaldo Bairn said: No it's not. The split stops the 7th placed team going above the 6th placed, the fact they cannot play each other is specifically through the mechanism of the split. There is absolutely no reason why the split fixtures couldn't be played out in a non-split league, absolutely none. What's more the split is after 3 games so there is never a guarantee of an even number of games between rival sides. I am not sure of this so called acid test, but your argument that it's irrelevant and nothing more than an "arithmetical curiosity" is purposefully incorrect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ric said: There is absolutely no reason why the split fixtures couldn't be played out in a non-split league, absolutely none. What's more the split is after 3 games so there is never a guarantee of an even number of games between rival sides. What are you suggesting here? It sounds a lot like you’re suggesting that you’re suggesting continue with having the bottom half all play each other after 33 games, and top half likewise, but the league table doesn’t have a split? Which, if so, is patently ridiculous. Edit: fixture lists are also already inherently unfair, imo. We all know how important momentum can be in football, and fixture lists can play a part in creating or denying it by giving you certain runs of games. Edited February 7, 2022 by oneteaminglasgow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: What are you suggesting here? It sounds a lot like you’re suggesting that you’re suggesting continue with having the bottom half all play each other after 33 games, and top half likewise, but the league table doesn’t have a split? Which, if so, is patently ridiculous. What you have just described is a "normal" league. Hardly "patently ridiculous". Edit: Look, we've all heard the arguments for and against the split, I don't see the benefit of expanding them on this thread. For me, there isn't an argument put forward in favour for the split that justifies the negatives that I see from it. I appreciate others may disagree, but it's not because the negatives I identify are incorrect, wrong or false, it's just that they are happy not to consider them as influential. Edited February 7, 2022 by Ric 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: The fixture list is slightly unfair. But I think this angle is over-done. Unfairness is built into football. Some teams miss important players for big games through injury. That's not really fair. Referees make mistakes. That's not fair. You might have to play an easy game against a shite team in weather conditions that are so shite they act as a leveller and cost you points, which isn't really fair. Some teams can go out and sign players for million of pounds while others can't. That's not really fair. The unfairness of the fixture list is pretty trivial. One annoyance it that when they get a situation where they're not going to be able to balance home and away fixtures and it's clear that someone's got to get the shitty end of the stick the decision making as to who that club will be is never explained. The basic principles for thepost split fixtures seem to be (in rough order of priority) Home advantage in the Old Firm Games must end up being split 2:2 Both Celtic and Rangers should get 18 home and 18 away fixtures Edinburgh and Dundee derbies should be split 2:2 if there's a 4th one If possible give Motherwell the extra away game, they won't mind But that's just a best guess based on what they've done in the past. When they announce the fixtures they never actually explain their working Of course it there's a title race then prioritising 18:18 for the clubs involved makes sense. The derby matches are significant series in themselves so taking these things into account isn't necessarily a bad idea but it would be an improvement if we knew quite what was going on Edited February 7, 2022 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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