Andy Murray Latest and General Tennis Chat

[Skyline Drifter]

brilliant comeback the night! if that was henman 2 sets down, u might aswell just turn over n watch somethin else coz he aint got a hope in hell of comin back! deserves a lot of credit for the way he fought for the win!

You haven't got a clue do you?

For what it's worth, as recently as 2005 Henman was two sets down to Jarkko Niemenen at Wimbledon and came back to win 3-6 6-7 6-4 7-5 6-2. Just last year he trailed Carlos Moya 2-1 in sets but came back to win 6-3 1-6 5-7 6-2 13-11 in five.

I recall well when Henman first came to serious prominence with the British public back in 1996 as an unseeded virtual unknown he faced 5th seed Yevgeny Kafelnikov in the first round at Wimbledon. He won in five sets 7-6 6-3 6-7 4-6 7-5 which was the complete opposite in that he lost a two set lead but Kafelnikov had a double break in the 5th set and still Henman came back from the dead to win it. In all his years at Wimbledon (which involved being a semi finalist four times and a quarter finalist another four times) he rarely had straightforward progress and often won from the tightest of corners.

Don't let any of that affect your chip on the shoulder judgements though.

[Skyline Drifter]

He was the former British number one. The undertone is that Murray is a better player. An undertone that I would wholeheartedly agree.

Based on what as a matter of interest?

He may well go on to be a better player. You might claim he's better at an equivalent age but Murray hasn't done a fraction of what Henman did in the game yet. Tomorrow will be his first Grand Slam quarter final. The first time he's reached the last eight of a major tourney. Do you know how many times Henman did that? Ten times. And in six of those ten he went on to make the semi final. He made semis at both Flushing Meadow and Roland Garros as well as Wimbledon proving he could have some success on all surfaces. Henman got as high as No 4 in the world in official rankings at one point. Murray's highest ranking to date is 8.

None of which is to knock Andy who may yet go on to better all of it and is a sportsman Scotland (and Britain) can justifiably be proud of. But he hasn't come anywhere close to eclipsing Henman yet and without making a Grand Slam final he'll only do so by maintaining the level he's just reached for the better part of a decade.

[Guest The Phoenix]

Based on what as a matter of interest?

He may well go on to be a better player. You might claim he's better at an equivalent age but Murray hasn't done a fraction of what Henman did in the game yet. Tomorrow will be his first Grand Slam quarter final. The first time he's reached the last eight of a major tourney. Do you know how many times Henman did that? Ten times. And in six of those ten he went on to make the semi final. He made semis at both Flushing Meadow and Roland Garros as well as Wimbledon proving he could have some success on all surfaces. Henman got as high as No 4 in the world in official rankings at one point. Murray's highest ranking to date is 8.

None of which is to knock Andy who may yet go on to better all of it and is a sportsman Scotland (and Britain) can justifiably be proud of. But he hasn't come anywhere close to eclipsing Henman yet and without making a Grand Slam final he'll only do so by maintaining the level he's just reached for the better part of a decade.

Are you Lucy Henman?

For what it's worth, I agree with every word.

[Skyline Drifter]

Are you Lucy Henman?

No.

But I do get heartily sick every year of people who know less about tennis than I know about nuclear science laden down with chips on both shoulders moaning about the English and their Henmania (and this fictional belief that Murray is British until he loses and Scottish thereafter that they've made up to fit their agenda) whilst equally and completely without foundation dismissing Henman (and Rusedski but Henman in particular for some reason) as a "choker" or something similar when Murray hasn't yet achieved even a fraction of what Henman did.

Does anyone want a spare soapbox? I've finished with it now.

[armchair footsoldier]

Hadn't watched tennis in years . but last nights game made great telly.

murray is great for the sport . he's rekindled my interest anyway. GO ON SON!

[xbl]

Does anyone want a spare soapbox? I've finished with it now.

In defence of these moaners, The Gray Ghost was one of the Henman haters. It was nothing to do with the man himself, more because The Gray Ghost hated all the hype. Having very quickly fallen into Murray Mania, The Gray Ghost realises that he was really harsh on the English fans. It makes such a difference when its a Scottish guy competing!

Hopefully, Andy Murrays success will allow more miserable b*****ds like The Gray Ghost to stop moaning about percieved bias in tennis coverage, theres nothing wrong with it!

[Piehutt]

Fantastic viewing last night. That was total Hollywood Tennis!

Nadal should be a step too far, but looking forward to it at any rate.

[ICTChris]

You haven't got a clue do you?

For what it's worth, as recently as 2005 Henman was two sets down to Jarkko Niemenen at Wimbledon and came back to win 3-6 6-7 6-4 7-5 6-2. Just last year he trailed Carlos Moya 2-1 in sets but came back to win 6-3 1-6 5-7 6-2 13-11 in five.

I recall well when Henman first came to serious prominence with the British public back in 1996 as an unseeded virtual unknown he faced 5th seed Yevgeny Kafelnikov in the first round at Wimbledon. He won in five sets 7-6 6-3 6-7 4-6 7-5 which was the complete opposite in that he lost a two set lead but Kafelnikov had a double break in the 5th set and still Henman came back from the dead to win it. In all his years at Wimbledon (which involved being a semi finalist four times and a quarter finalist another four times) he rarely had straightforward progress and often won from the tightest of corners.

Don't let any of that affect your chip on the shoulder judgements though.

Great post. Henman was a fantastic player, hopefully Murray can go on to surpass his achievements.

[RedWeb]

Does anyone want a spare soapbox?

Ok I'll have a go.

I was always a big Henman fan. I am now a big Murray fan. When Murray/Henman careers overlapped I wanted Murray to win as he was the big white hope. However, Henman did a great job for British tennis and those who belittle his achievements now are bang out of order.

I think the reason people got miffed with Timbo was because you could almost see the end of a tournament before it came. For example at Wimbledon you knew he would never get past Sampras or Hewitt. On top of that his one big chance was when he blew it against Goran. 2 sets to 1 up with the beatable Pat Rafter in the final it could and should have been Tim's year. The fact that he made an erse of it put some people off him and perhaps the belief in him waned from that point.

Yes, Tim was world no 4 but for me this was down to consistency rather than brilliance. Someone like Tommy Robredo seems to have been in the top 10 forever but I think he's won less (or perhaps) the same amount of tournaments as Andy Murray. I see Andy as being a much more explosive player than Henman with the potential to actually win a slam and several Masters series events. Week in week out he may never be as consistent as Tim but I see him having more memorable highs. There is no doubt Andy is a better player at this stage of his career and if he continues to progress he will be the best we have had for many years.

PaulC

Edited July 1, 2008 by RedWeb

[the jambo-rocker]

good game to watch and to see him win last night but what was the flash of the bicep when he won all about?

Edited July 1, 2008 by the jambo-rocker

[pollymac]

Based on what as a matter of interest?

He may well go on to be a better player. You might claim he's better at an equivalent age but Murray hasn't done a fraction of what Henman did in the game yet. Tomorrow will be his first Grand Slam quarter final. The first time he's reached the last eight of a major tourney. Do you know how many times Henman did that? Ten times. And in six of those ten he went on to make the semi final. He made semis at both Flushing Meadow and Roland Garros as well as Wimbledon proving he could have some success on all surfaces. Henman got as high as No 4 in the world in official rankings at one point. Murray's highest ranking to date is 8.

None of which is to knock Andy who may yet go on to better all of it and is a sportsman Scotland (and Britain) can justifiably be proud of. But he hasn't come anywhere close to eclipsing Henman yet and without making a Grand Slam final he'll only do so by maintaining the level he's just reached for the better part of a decade.

Good post. It should also be noted that at that time (when Henmania peaked), 'Britain' had two players regularly in the top 10 rankings. It's easy to forget how well both Tim and often Greg often played; the number of times the nails were fairly chewed during Tim's comebacks or near misses...bally eck Tarquin, middle 'England' were up to their knees in cuticle blood

It was great to watch at the time. Just as it's great to watch now. You don't need to compare either of the two and find one of them wanting or point out shortcomings in said comparison, you just need to acknowledge that they are/were both very talented individuals who have provided some enjoyable moments during the summer's break from fitba.

Now Jeremy Bates, our previous Number One, on the other hand...

[Forest_Fifer]

good game to watch and to see him win last night but what was the flash of the bicep when he won all about?

He said it was to show that he'd been working hard on his physical conditioning (after all the old moans when he started that he wasn't fit enough).

[Skyline Drifter]

Yes, Tim was world no 4 but for me this was down to consistency rather than brilliance. Someone like Tommy Robredo seems to have been in the top 10 forever but I think he's won less (or perhaps) the same amount of tournaments as Andy Murray.

Robredo has six singles titles to his name. Murray has five. Though Robredo is five years older. Robredo was in the top 10 from May 06 to Dec 07, 19 months. He's not there currently. He peaked at No 5, albeit only for a single week in August 06, spending most of the rest of the time ranked somewhere between 7 and 10 which is pretty much where Murray would most likely be if he hadn't spent so much time injured in the last 18 months.

Robredo though is a clay court specialist which does tend to mean his opportunities to win anything are limited to a few months in the early summer.

I accept the general point though. Consistency in reaching last eights all over the world will, without winning anything, most likely get you into the top ten in the world, especially if the same one or two are winning all the time and therefore the guys around you aren't winning tournaments either. To be fair that probably means Henman did even better to get to 4 because whilst Sampras was winning three of the big four regularly, there wasn't a dominant clay courter the way Nadal is now so others were picking up points on clay.

Murray is probably in a bit of a false position in rankings too as his injuries last summer and this have handicapped his rankings a good bit. He is currently 11 in the world but probably should be about 7 or 8. He is young enough to kick on from there too though Djokovic and Nadal are of the same generation so aren't going to retire out of his way. he's going to have to find a way of raising his game to their levels to compete for majors regularly.

I don't think there's much doubt Andy is ahead of Henman at the same age because Henman was quite a late developer in terms of world class tennis. He was 20 before he played Wimbledon as a senior and almost 22 before he made any sort of serious impact. Murray is still only 21. He is one year ahead of Henman in terms of reaching his first grand slam q-f. Henman was almost 24 before he made a Grand Slam semi final.

[StewartyMac]

brilliant comeback the night! if that was henman 2 sets down, u might aswell just turn over n watch somethin else coz he aint got a hope in hell of comin back! deserves a lot of credit for the way he fought for the win!

I know this has been answered in more detail, but you're wrong on so many levels.

Moreso, in that, if anything, Murray has seemed to be the kind of player who would just give up facing such adversity. I've seen it so many times in the past with him, that his petted lip comes on, and his confidence and effort just disappears. This is obviously something he's worked really hard on over the last year, and it's showed.

Because if that was last year*, Murray would have lost that match. No question. I was just as surprised as delighted that he came back to win so well last night.

*before the pedants jump in, I know he was injured last year at this time.

[Guest The Ghost of Ron Burgundy]

I tell you what though, sections of the Tartan Army get a hell of a hard time for the way they dress up but they've got nothing on some of the ridiculous getup you see at Wimbledon. In all the years I've been going to Hampden not once have I seen a man in a straw hat, pink polo top with the collars turned up and a jumper flung loosely over the shoulders watching the game with a pair of binoculars from 30 feet away.

this is the thing though....if you are having a converstaion about Hitler it's not necessary to then list every other genocidal maniac the world has ever produced...this is a football forum discussing football matters and so the national team will enter into discussion every now and then.

How many folk turn up to county games dressed in a kilt with a nessie hat and a scarf emblazoned with Latvia 1995 badges...none i'll bet....why...cos it's fucking stupid .

The twats at wimbledon are equally stupid as are the tools from Germany wearing those crazy mohawk wigs at euro 2008.

Same personalities...different sport...look at me...me meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Personally i'd set about them with rubber hoses as a means of teaching them to grow up.

[Scotchie]

The best part of last nights match (apart from winning) was when he one the vital 3rd set. Seeing him celebrating was like watching a scene from Braveheart. Yes the hairs were up on the back of the neck, my blood was boiling and celebrating with him. Absolutely brilliant viewing. Good luck tomorrow Andy!

[RedWeb]

He is young enough to kick on from there too though Djokovic and Nadal are of the same generation so aren't going to retire out of his way.

Indeed. Murray seems to have come through at the same time as a stack of other talented youngsters like Joko, Nadal and Gasquet. I have a horrible feeling Joko and Nadal in particular could become frequent obstacles to Murray winning a slam. For whatever reason he seems to be able to beat Federer but has so far failed to get a win against the "other two". However, if he can get a more consistent service action he can still muscle in on the top 5.

[KiwiDB]

You cant compare clay and grass court tennis. Its like two different sports.

I'd pick Nadal to beat Federer every day of the week on a clay court, but Id give you 100/1 that he beats him at Wimbledon.

Murray has an outside shot of the final. He has no chance whatsoever of beating Federer on grass at this stage of his career and probably knows this.

Played very well against Roddick, but Roddick really needs to go away and have a major rethink. Outside the top 10 in the world now and can only see things getting worse for him.

I also agree with Sam that Murray is a Brit at Wimbledon. That is the country he represents, as you will see if you look on the Wimbledon site and see Murray (GBR). I think the commentators are very fair with the amount of times they mention he is a Scot. I cant believe how precious people get about that to be honest.

Oh yes, here it is.

[Skyline Drifter]

Oh yes, here it is.

In fairness that's a two year old quote and was more than accurate at the time. Nadal's grass court game has developed immensely in the intervening time. At no point in that post does HB say he'll NEVER beat Federer. It's clearly a "this point in time" post.

[stuart.]

He is playing well against Nadal tonight. 5-5 in the first set and Murray looking the better player.

Anyone else watching?