Menzel Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Whereas if this person had been sent to a female establishment, it would have been another group, equally legitimately, complaining that biologically female prisoners were at risk of assault from a biologically male inmate. The Prison Service has to allocate offenders to the most suitable accommodation. This is assesed on many factors, risk to the public, themselves and other prisoners being at the head of the list. That they may be offended - given that they are being sent to prison as a consquence of their own offensive behaviour - is quite low down the list of priorities, especially when you go past the "PREJUDICE!" headline, and have a look at exactly how far down the line of re-assignment this poor wee violent offender has gone. According to the offender's mother, interviewed on BBC 5Live the other night, the answer is a "boob job" and "some hormone tablets". No re-assignment certificate, no medical statement confirming the progress made, no competent authority to supply support in court for this personal view the offender holds of herself. Personally, I think that the other inmates on any residential unit in a female Establishment would have a much more credible complaint about "being put in danger" had Hudson, and her natal genitalia, tipped up on their wing. But then, we'd just have to wait for them to decide which "community" they're part of before the inevitable sensationalist press opinion piece. Here's an article explaining why you're speaking bigoted shite: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/why-has-trans-woman-tara-hudson-been-sent-all-male-prison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 That gender is distinct from sex, that only the latter is defined by biological characteristics, and that the act of refusing to recognise or respect gender choices leads to the wider societal oppression of trans people. What is gender defined by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG_03 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 If your views can't stand up to being ridiculed then it's probably a pretty solid sign that those views are pretty moronic. The idea that ridicule is not a way to deal with offensive views is absurd. Ridicule in one form or another is clearly a very useful tool against offensive views and behaviour, and has been for a long time. Well yes, we are talking about the way to deal with moronic views. Just seems to me that if you bully/ridicule someone mercilessly then all you are going to do is piss them off and entrench their views. Perhaps you can enlighten me though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Bullying the powerful to stop them abusing the vulnerable isn't just morally permissible; it's a duty. If only the Lib Dems had done that from 2010 - 2015, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Jack D Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Here's an article explaining why you're speaking bigoted shite: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/why-has-trans-woman-tara-hudson-been-sent-all-male-prison I have to admit that I have never really given much thought to this issue and have found the debate on this thread enlightening and quite fascinating. Whilst I agree with your general viewpoint on this and admire your passion for it, I think your method of debate is terrible. I think you need to respect that this is an issue which people generally will not have been exposed to as much as yourself. I'm not excusing bigoted views but I would suggest that they mainly come through ignorance of the topic rather than vindictiveness towards LGBT people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 That isn't evidence, it is an opinion. No, it is evidence. There is evidence to support all of those things. There is scientific evidence that gender is not the same thing as sex. There is evidence in the form of crime reports and employment discrimination cases that show the effect of passive and third-party transphobia on the basic freedoms of trans people. What is gender defined by? A massive weight of both scientific and social scientific study into what gender norms are, where they come from, and how they don't always align with chromosomal subdivisions of human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Wouldn't educating them be a better option? You're coming across as a bit of a fascist.I would have sympathy for you and for anyone ignorant of assorted gender/sexual identity struggles and definitions who attempts to understand them better even if they're not entirely tactful in doing so, since yes, people of every modern western minority can be extremely vocal in their criticism, even dismissive of a majority to understand or sympathise with anything they have to go through. Nobody should be criticised for attempting to foster a greater understanding of the world or the people in it for themselves, and as far as gender goes the concept of someone's body not matching up with their mind and them doing something in light of that (from wearing different clothes to taking hormones to having operations and being legally a different sex) can be so alien to someone it's no real surprise that there's confusion, ignorance, resistance, even if there's a varying level of acceptability of those different reactions. A greater level of understanding, culturally and socially, from people who go through it first hand, is the best way of understanding why this happens and providing a greater level of support for people who go through it. Where my sympathy fades for the "I just want to find out" argument is when you ignore me answering your question on what the Q in LGBTQ stands for (for the added irony, Q & + are added for the sake of inclusiveness) and keep equating the reaction to your shite as "fascist," which is an insult to the intelligence of everyone reading it, never mind actual, you know, victims of fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 All you've done is point out how poorly equipped the prison system is to provide special and safe facilities for convicts who are in the process of transitioning. An issue that hasn't been given the proper levels of attention because of a tendency in both wider society and prison policy of erasing the experiences of anything other than the most binary of gender identity situations. Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Becuase the point of prison isn't, or shouldn't be, to chuck folk to the wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 No, it is evidence. There is evidence to support all of those things. There is scientific evidence that gender is not the same thing as sex. There is evidence in the form of crime reports and employment discrimination cases that show the effect of passive and third-party transphobia on the basic freedoms of trans people. A massive weight of both scientific and social scientific study into what gender norms are, where they come from, and how they don't always align with chromosomal subdivisions of human beings. Gender is a social construct and like all such things is not uniformally defined within society. This is where this issue goes circular as without the changing of social acceptance slavery would still be deemed acceptable and LGBT communities would continue to be persecuted. Can you answer my previous post about self determination in the UK. It would appear that you need similar processes to getting married as you do to change your gender. I cannot expect people to accept that I am married (based on my continued assertion that I am) so is this different to gender? As far as I can see these are identical from a social perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I have to admit that I have never really given much thought to this issue and have found the debate on this thread enlightening and quite fascinating. Whilst I agree with your general viewpoint on this and admire your passion for it, I think your method of debate is terrible. I think you need to respect that this is an issue which people generally will not have been exposed to as much as yourself. I'm not excusing bigoted views but I would suggest that they mainly come through ignorance of the topic rather than vindictiveness towards LGBT people. That's all well and good but people like Todders are trying to argue against a concept they blatantly don't understand. If they acknowledged they knew f**k all and listened to Menzel, Ad Lib, Miguel Sanchez (and Renton before) they would be given far more credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Lol that's such a conservative view of prison, are you a Tory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 The Prison Service has to allocate offenders to the most suitable accommodation. This is assesed on many factors, risk to the public, themselves and other prisoners being at the head of the list. That's just not accurate. Human Rights trump all those considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Well yes, we are talking about the way to deal with moronic views. Just seems to me that if you bully/ridicule someone mercilessly then all you are going to do is piss them off and entrench their views. Perhaps you can enlighten me though? I suspect I would be unable to. Not sure why ridiculing them is going to piss them off and entrench their offensive views whereas arguing with them is going to make them suddenly see the light. The issue is less about convincing one pig headed individual than preventing others from thinking it's a legitimate point of view, which is really the entire purpose of ridiculing it. Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Fair point. Why don't we just burn all the fuckers instead. If they don't like it then they shouldn't be committing crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoRaj Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Why should we spend money catering to trans criminals? If they don't like the facilities in jail then they shouldn't be committing crimes Because they are a vulnerable group who are disproportionately subjected to physical abuse and sexual assault in the prison population and wider society. At best the argument you are making here is against prisoners' human rights generally. At worst, you are saying that trans people are uniquely undeserving of having their gender identity, and the consequences of it, ignored by the prison system as set against basic criteria of physical protection and rehabilitation. This is called discrimination. Transphobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Gender is a social construct and like all such things is not uniformally defined within society. This is where this issue goes circular as without the changing of social acceptance slavery would still be deemed acceptable and LGBT communities would continue to be persecuted. Can you answer my previous post about self determination in the UK. It would appear that you need similar processes to getting married as you do to change your gender. I cannot expect people to accept that I am married (based on my continued assertion that I am) so is this different to gender? As far as I can see these are identical from a social perspective. Just because something is in part socially constructed doesn't mean it hasn't got social power or that it doesn't pervasively influence the power relationships between different groups in society, and doesn't mean that certain accounts aren't less wrong or logically and ethically superior to arbitrary discrimination. Marriage and gender are very clearly different from a social perspective. One relies on the consent of another to be brought into existence and the other does not. For the state arbitrarily to place structural obstacles to self-determination and to require the acceptance by others is itself discriminatory. Incidentally, the clear difference between marriage and gender is shown in the horrible and unacceptable provision of the spousal veto which requires someone who is married to get their partner's consent before they can be issued a Gender Reassignment Certificate. The idea that someone else should be allowed to dictate to you what your gender is is fucking disgusting. In contrast, it's completely reasonable for someone else to refuse to marry you or to demand a divorce even if you don't want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 On the question of trans prisoners, I should also point out that as a community they are disproportionately likely to be the subjects of social exclusion because of their gender identity, which often cuts them off from family and other support structures, pushing trans people into crime and criminal relationships. They are more likely than the general population to be forced into the sex trade, more likely to be physically abused, and therefore to be put in situations where they are committing crimes that attract prison sentences if caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 No, it is evidence. There is evidence to support all of those things. There is scientific evidence that gender is not the same thing as sex. There is evidence in the form of crime reports and employment discrimination cases that show the effect of passive and third-party transphobia on the basic freedoms of trans people. A massive weight of both scientific and social scientific study into what gender norms are, where they come from, and how they don't always align with chromosomal subdivisions of human beings. Does exhibiting norms of the opposite gender to that of your sex mean you are that gender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Does exhibiting norms of the opposite gender to that of your sex mean you are that gender? This is incoherent. A gender isn't the opposite of a sex. The opposite of a male is not a woman. The opposite of a female is not a man. The opposite of a male is a female. The opposite of a woman is a man. You are the gender you decide you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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