welshbairn Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Well you can't - just like IndyScot can't guarantee EU membership. There comes a time when you have to realise that ancient loyalties have put you on the wrong side of the argument. The Tories are no longer the free market, pro business, pragmatic, outward looking one Nation party of the past, they're a bunch of ideologues in hock to hedge funders. I'll pop you an SNP membership form in the post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There comes a time when you have to realise that ancient loyalties have put you on the wrong side of the argument. The Tories are no longer the free market, pro business, pragmatic, outward looking one Nation party of the past, they're a bunch of ideologues in hock to hedge funders. I'll pop you an SNP membership form in the post. You can post what you like and produce as many Nicola Sturgeon prayer candles as you wish. IndyScot still can't guarantee EU membership. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Boring, very boring. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisal Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 7 hours ago, The_Kincardine said: You can post what you like and produce as many Nicola Sturgeon prayer candles as you wish. IndyScot still can't guarantee EU membership. 6 years ago you said the only way Scotland would be in the EU would be to remain part of the UK. We did and now we are out the EU and you're saying an independent Scotland can't guarantee to be in the EU. Extrapolate your predictions and Scotland will be an independent nation in the EU in 6 years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Antlion said: So about as long as it took the chaotic UK to drag us out? So not the 18 months that was promised by in the White Paper before the IndyRef? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisal Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: So not the 18 months that was promised by in the White Paper before the IndyRef? You're ignoring the fact that the UK was in the EU at the time of the White Paper. The UK has now left. Something Better Together guaranteed wouldn't happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 13 minutes ago, thisal said: You're ignoring the fact that the UK was in the EU at the time of the White Paper. The UK has now left. Something Better Together guaranteed wouldn't happen. You are ignoring the SNP's refusal to accept the EU Commission's "Barroso doctrine" . The Commissioners said publicly and wrote letters that confirmed had Scotland voted Yes in the referendum, it would have left the EU when it left the UK. Another key difference is that the SNP has now ditched that the "Sterlingisation" currency policy that was initially proposed by the Neo-liberal Adam Smith Institute. We can only hope that lessons have been learned for the IndyRef2 White Paper. Any application for EU (or even EFTA) membership will dependent on the divorce deal with rUK. That will be more complex, lengthy and costly than Brexit. There should be commitments to hold referenda on the UK divorce deal and re-joining the EU. Better Together could not guarantee that the UK would vote to Remain. Anyone who believed that would have to be incredibly stupid. Similarly, there were lots of the claims in the White Paper that were incredibly stupid. The people have to ignore the idiotic propaganda that dominates elections/referendums and make their own judgement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Bishop Briggs said: So not the 18 months that was promised by in the White Paper before the IndyRef? No idea - did the White Paper say it would “die in a ditch” rather than be outside the EU for longer than 18 months? Did it repeat fifty times that we’d be in within 18 months? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Antlion said: No idea - did the White Paper say it would “die in a ditch” rather than be outside the EU for longer than 18 months? Did it repeat fifty times that we’d be in within 18 months? The White Paper said the Scotland would be able to join the EU (under article 48) immediately on becoming independent. The SNP said that more than 50 times, even after the EU Commissioner wrote to Scottish Parliament's European Committee to confirm that the White Paper was wrong. IIRC you have argued that point repeatedly on here. You also said that 18 month negotiation/transition period in the White Paper was realistic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: The White Paper said the Scotland would be able to join the EU (under article 48) immediately on becoming independent. The SNP said that more than 50 times, even after the EU Commissioner wrote to Scottish Parliament's European Committee to confirm that the White Paper was wrong. IIRC you have argued that point repeatedly on here. You also said that 18 month negotiation/transition period in the White Paper was realistic. Evidence? It would be useful to see links of this proposed mendacity so that we might compare it to the mendacity of the UK. I mean we wouldn’t want it to look as though you’re happy for a government to lie about leaving a union but raging about a government lying about leaving a union. https://youtu.be/svmmqY3UwUM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 minute ago, MixuFruit said: Oh come the f**k on with this revisionist 20:20 hindsight bullshit. Not revisionist at all. Only totalitarian regimes (Communist or Fascist) can guarantee the outcomes of elections and referendums. It's amazing how many politicians (including the EU) find it hard to accept the democratic choices of the electorates. The losers, especially here, often claim that the victors cheated the voters. At the time, even the Tories were confident that Remain would win. Conservatives.In (run Cameron's team) recruited over two thirds of Tory Parliamentarians - including over 90% of Ministers in Cameron's government. Cameron was complacent and events proved him and the major parties (who all backed Remain) wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bishop Briggs said: Better Together could not guarantee that the UK would vote to Remain. 12 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: At the time, even the Tories were confident that Remain would win. Conservatives.In (run Cameron's team) recruited over two thirds of Tory Parliamentarians - including over 90% of Ministers in Cameron's government. Cameron was complacent and events proved him and the major parties (who all backed Remain) wrong. The EU referendum wasn't announced till a year after Indyref1, and held the year after that. The Tories promised that voting No was the only way to stay in the EU, then ripped us right out. Just to satisfy internal Tory Party politics. Promises to Scotland don't matter. Edited June 25, 2020 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 22/06/2020 at 21:07, Bishop Briggs said: Will the SNP commit to the equivalent of the UK's current aid budget of 0.7% of GDP? Is there a forecast of how much a Scottish Foreign Office, embassies and consulates will cost? 12 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Not revisionist at all. Only totalitarian regimes (Communist or Fascist) can guarantee the outcomes of elections and referendums. It's amazing how many politicians (including the EU) find it hard to accept the democratic choices of the electorates. The losers, especially here, often claim that the victors cheated the voters. Make up your mind. Either only idiots believe the “propaganda” raised during referendum campaigns and, for example, it was fine for Better Together and Vote Leave to make claims that were unknowable (and have turned out false) because everyone secretly knew they couldn’t guarantee them, or you actually want answers emblazoned on the side of a bus, dammit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Just so I’m all caught up, the Yes campaign have to provide clear projections on exactly what will happen in the event of independence, such as the costs of embassies and policy with regards to international aid, but the No campaign can make whatever claims they like about the future of Scotland within the UK because “they can’t guarantee anything, and everyone knows that”? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 You will not get to watch eastenders now shut up and do what you are told 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, doulikefish said: You will not get to watch eastenders now shut up and do what you are told In the week or two before the vote I remember a bit on the news where they were asking people what they thought would happen. Cut to a housing estate, some clown in an Ellesse trackie: "I think it'll be aye but I don't want it to be cos I still want to watch Match of the Day" Real people, real problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Empty headed separatists just do not understand the massive geopolitical ramifications of independence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, MixuFruit said: that's about it. moreover this didn't happen and didn't form a key plank of the no campaign. anyone who thinks differently is a cretin. At the time, 2014, independence would have resulted automatically in Scotexit. If a region, to use the EU's term for Scotland at the time, gains independence from a Member State, it leaves the EU. The same rule would apply to Catalonia ond Flanders. The Yes campaign denied that was the case. It refused to acknowledge the Commission's clear statement on the issue. The Better Together was run by pro-EU politicians who agreed with the Commission. That tweet simply represented the Commission's view. Polling has revealed that around a third of Yes voters also voted Leave. Nobody represents their views in Scottish politics. They are, like me, politically homeless. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: Empty headed separatists just do not understand the massive geopolitical ramifications of independence. That was one of the best reasons for supporting independence! A quick search reveals that, between 2000 and 2013, the winning countries included Azerbaijan, Turkey, Ukraine and Russia! Who could possibly wish to leave such magnificent example of European culture and its contribution to democracy, peace and security? Edited June 25, 2020 by Bishop Briggs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said: Just so I’m all caught up, the Yes campaign have to provide clear projections on exactly what will happen in the event of independence, such as the costs of embassies and policy with regards to international aid, but the No campaign can make whatever claims they like about the future of Scotland within the UK because “they can’t guarantee anything, and everyone knows that”? That’s about it. They used to use the “well the status quo speaks for itself” - but they shot that to shit themselves when many of them (Bishop Briggs included) found themselves supporting the “leave” side in a referendum which didn’t just avoid answering questions but built lie upon lie. Whenever a Brexiteer BritNat demands cast-iron guarantees on anything from the “Yes” campaign, they should be directed to: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-easy-nigel-farage-theresa-may-david-davis-boris-johnson-8846041?amp https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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