General Politics Thread

[Jambomo]

11 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

in what way? like physical real world examples

Looking at change for any group of people should involve those affected by it if you want to get them on-board and in agreement with you.

I think changing rooms is a good example. That people should be able to use the changing room they feel most comfortable in identifying with is absolutely correct. It’s also fair that a women may not wish to change in front of a biological man. The answer is simply communal changing rooms such as you have seen for at least 40 years in swimming pools.
 

Yet on both sides you have extreme positions. It’s stupid to think that men who abuse the laws on this have simply been waiting for permission to go into women’s changing rooms. Yet it’s also not right or fair to say to women that there fears are irrational and they have to accept it and just get on with it and change in front of whoever or they are bigots.

There is a small strain in this debate of misogyny, where you have men insisting that women just shut-up and accept what’s being spoken about. They don’t allow debate, input and are not listening to any fears or concerns (however valid or invalid) or attempting to allay them. This is not because they care about trans-rights but more because they care about imposing their will on women.

[BFTD]

This really is all very much head-in-hands stuff.

When you look at the primary antagonists in the field of keeping transexuals in their place, it's hard to come to any conclusion other than attention-seeking. No coincidence they're all ardent Twitterers with form for pointing their followers at targets they dislike. The only one that surprised me was Graham Linehan; I'd still love to know exactly how this has ended up being such a vitriolic obsession for him. Astonishing that he can't see his "kids being brainwashed into becoming trans" angle is the exact same panicky fear that terrified people about The Gays for so long.

[NotThePars]

3 hours ago, Jambomo said:

 

There is a small strain in this debate of misogyny, where you have men insisting that women just shut-up and accept what’s being spoken about. They don’t allow debate, input and are not listening to any fears or concerns (however valid or invalid) or attempting to allay them. This is not because they care about trans-rights but more because they care about imposing their will on women.

I agree and that's why Linehan and Wings shouldn't be amplified into the debate.

[Jambomo]

3 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I'd be more sympathetic to the 'women's concerns' thing if we didn't know that most women aren't bothered

and, probably more importantly, that there a number of countries including Ireland where it's been the status quo for a few years which between them adds up to a few decades of shared experience without the sky falling in.

Whilst I am very firmly in the not bothered camp and am perfectly happy with transgender women using women’s toilets (they have cubicles ffs) those numbers aren’t “most women” 46% isn’t even half of women who will say they are happy.

Thats kind of my point, even as a woman, I am not claiming to speak for the rest of my sex, why are YOU telling us what we should be bothered/not bothered about?

I think there is one area that needs definite consideration and that is women’s sport. This is probably the only area is can see where there is a real issue that transgender rights may have an actual, measurable impact on women’s rights and these rights should be discussed and balanced out, rather than simply ignored. 

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

Whilst I am very firmly in the not bothered camp and am perfectly happy with transgender women using women’s toilets (they have cubicles ffs) those numbers aren’t “most women” 46% isn’t even half of women who will say they are happy.

Thats kind of my point, even as a woman, I am not claiming to speak for the rest of my sex, why are YOU telling us what we should be bothered/not bothered about?

I think there is one area that needs definite consideration and that is women’s sport. This is probably the only area is can see where there is a real issue that transgender rights may have an actual, measurable impact on women’s rights and these rights should be discussed and balanced out, rather than simply ignored. 

The problem is it's got so toxic on both extremes that it's become impossible to discuss rationally in any public way. I agree about the sport thing, it's a minefield, especially for people who were born not wholly physically male nor female, like Caster Semenya.

[Bairnardo]

The problem is it's got so toxic on both extremes that it's become impossible to discuss rationally in any public way. I agree about the sport thing, it's a minefield, especially for people who were born not wholly physically male nor female, like Caster Semenya.

Aye. Folk become scared to contribute because the first grammatical misstep or incorrect use of terminology they dont fully understand sees them being branded a bigot.

Have said this loads on this subject, for probably the vast majority of people, issues over gender are borderline impossible to understand and relate too because for most people it's in their hard wiring. It's a topic that needs way more education and less fighting.

[Detournement]

Stats for Lefties had trouble with the concept that 25% is a significant proportion during the lead up to last year's GE as well.

[Detournement]

5 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Astonishing that he can't see his "kids being brainwashed into becoming trans" angle is the exact same panicky fear that terrified people about The Gays for so long.

If gender is determined by socialisation then children's gender will definitely be influenced by the attitudes and actions of adults around them. The same isn't true of sexual attraction.

 

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

If gender is determined by socialisation then children's gender will definitely be influenced by the attitudes and actions of adults around them. The same isn't true of sexual attraction.

Well well well.

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Well well well.

Who would have thought there was such certainty in the roots of sexual orientation. I should probably cancel my upcoming experimental phase.

[BFTD]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Who would have thought there was such certainty in the roots of sexual orientation. I should probably cancel my upcoming experimental phase.

Fuckin' booooooooo. That's my Saturday night ruined.

[lichtgilphead]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Who would have thought there was such certainty in the roots of sexual orientation. I should probably cancel my upcoming experimental phase.

Pics or GTF

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

Pics or GTF

[lichtgilphead]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Wid

[BFTD]

Just occurred to me that Matt Lucas probably ended up a sex symbol in some circles due to Daffyd.

Hope for us all, gentlemen.

[NotThePars]

23 hours ago, Detournement said:

If gender is determined by socialisation then children's gender will definitely be influenced by the attitudes and actions of adults around them. The same isn't true of sexual attraction.

 

Speaking from my own experience, I'm not sure this is the case.

[vikingTON]

On 12/06/2020 at 11:22, BigFatTabbyDave said:

The only one that surprised me was Graham Linehan; I'd still love to know exactly how this has ended up being such a vitriolic obsession for him. Astonishing that he can't see his "kids being brainwashed into becoming trans" angle is the exact same panicky fear that terrified people about The Gays for so long.

I'm really not sure why a white guy in his fifties from Ireland being not exactly woke while on Twitter comes as a surprise to anyone tbh.

Edited June 13, 2020 by vikingTON

[AsimButtHitsASix]

On 12/06/2020 at 15:05, Jambomo said:

 

I think there is one area that needs definite consideration and that is women’s sport. This is probably the only area is can see where there is a real issue that transgender rights may have an actual, measurable impact on women’s rights and these rights should be discussed and balanced out, rather than simply ignored. 

Funnily enough this is the one area where we have concrete objective evidence that it doesn't do any harm to women athletes. Transgender athletes have been allowed to perform at the Olympics for nearly 20 years and, so far, I aint seen any transgender athletes dominate any sports. That hasn't happened. There's a good twitter thread that debunks this myth right off the bat...

https://www.indy100.com/article/trans-athletes-lgbt-twitter-thread-brynn-tannehill-8808621

[BFTD]

Had the BBC's election broadcast from 1997 playing in the background for a few hours. Bit of a distraction from a simpler time.

Things that surprised me, or that I'd forgotten:

• Michael Portillo being touted as a frontrunner for the Tory leadership, before being whisked off the screen as word started to come through that all was not well in his totally safe seat. I'm sure he'll be fine.
• Jill Dando still being alive.
• Stirling 'too close to call' for Michael Forsyth  
• SNP hoping to surge to a massive haul of 7 seats.
• Sir Jammy Goldfinger and his proto-UKIP party.
• Constant talk of a imminent federal Europe from the anti-EU brigade, who were dismissed as crackpots, roundly rejected from British politics.
• Tories may have as few as 3 seats left in Scotland, but that's a worst-case scenario.

Ooh, David Mellor just lost. I remember his losing speech being spicy.

[hearthammer]

3 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Had the BBC's election broadcast from 1997 playing in the background for a few hours. Bit of a distraction from a simpler time.

Things that surprised me, or that I'd forgotten:

• Michael Portillo being touted as a frontrunner for the Tory leadership, before being whisked off the screen as word started to come through that all was not well in his totally safe seat. I'm sure he'll be fine.    He works for British Rail now ??
• Jill Dando still being alive.   WID      've
• Stirling 'too close to call' for Michael Forsyth                  Him and his mate Thomas Hamilton, eh ??  
• SNP hoping to surge to a massive haul of 7 seats.       The Formative Years
• Sir Jammy Goldfinger and his proto-UKIP party.            Fannies 
• Constant talk of a imminent federal Europe from the anti-EU brigade, who were dismissed as crackpots, roundly rejected from British politics.   Westminster kens best
• Tories may have as few as 3 seats left in Scotland, but that's a worst-case scenario.  Annabel Goldie ??    

Ooh, David Mellor just lost. I remember his losing speech being spicy.    Typical Chelsea fascist

Oh, how today's modern, all-inclusive world differs from then, eh ??