General Politics Thread

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Soapy FFC said:

Politics is full of people who go to university, do a politics degree, come out and work in politics in some fashion, then want to become an MP. No experience of life outside out their 'political bubble'. Completely unsuited to actually being an MP.

No experience of life, other than of course all their experiences from childhood, family, friends, being a student and in most cases working on the side as well. Before getting a qualification in the field that they'd like to participate in.

Aye that's a total scandal M8. Better off with Senga the hairdresser from two streets doing the job instead.

Edited October 7, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

This is a deliberate choice that happened in line with loads of economic levers being phased out of democratic political control. Politics is supposed to be alienating and out of touch with ordinary people now. 

If they wanted to alienate ordinary people then they could have given reps from the EIS or RMT the nod. They're hardly tribunes of the plebs themselves. 

[Miguel Sanchez]

24 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The reprehensible Tory maggot is doubling down on his MPs pay claims.

BBC News - Peter Bottomley stands by MP pay rise comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58830792

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

1 hour ago, Billy Jean King said:

The reprehensible Tory maggot is doubling down on his MPs pay claims.

BBC News - Peter Bottomley stands by MP pay rise comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58830792

[Antlion]

4 hours ago, Soapy FFC said:

Politics is full of people who go to university, do a politics degree, come out and work in politics in some fashion, then want to become an MP. No experience of life outside out their 'political bubble'. Completely unsuited to actually being an MP.

That depends on what you want an MP to be. At present, it’s a job, and so people study for it, gain degrees, and go into the field hoping for success. You could argue that it shouldn’t be a career, but it is one at the moment. No one complains about teachers having no experience outside of their “teaching bubble” or lawyers having no experience outside of the “legal bubble”, so I don’t think we can hold politicians to a different standard. It’s pretty much the same the whole world over, but the UK in particular requires a comprehensive education just to understand its archaic practices and vagaries. The whole political system here was set up from the start to keep the plebs and the uninitiated out. We can’t really blame people who hope to progress in the system for accepting its realities and working within them.

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, Soapy FFC said:

Politics is full of people who go to university, do a politics degree, come out and work in politics in some fashion, then want to become an MP. No experience of life outside out their 'political bubble'. Completely unsuited to actually being an MP.

I must be missing something.

If somebody goes to university, does a degree in medicine, then goes to work in a hospital.  Does that make them unsuitable to be a surgeon?

[Arabdownunder]

I think the point is that if someone goes to uni, studies politics and centres their social life around the Young <insert party>, then gets a job as a political adviser and works their way up to being an MP, their entire adult life experience is dominated by interactions with other party members and the political machine, most of whom have shared the same pathway. As well as their work, their outside of work life also becomes dominated by party meetings, fundraisers and social events. Its then almost inevitable that they get caught up in the ideological group-think of that party and view every issue through a party political lens. 

The rest of us, including @Fullerene's surgeon and @Antlion's teacher and lawyer will work with and socialise with folk with a range of political and social views and life experiences. This arguably makes them better surgeons, lawyers and teachers and would do the same for politicians.

[sophia]

4 hours ago, Arabdownunder said:

I think the point is that if someone goes to uni, studies politics and centres their social life around the Young <insert party>, then gets a job as a political adviser and works their way up to being an MP, their entire adult life experience is dominated by interactions with other party members and the political machine, most of whom have shared the same pathway. As well as their work, their outside of work life also becomes dominated by party meetings, fundraisers and social events. Its then almost inevitable that they get caught up in the ideological group-think of that party and view every issue through a party political lens. 

The rest of us, including @Fullerene's surgeon and @Antlion's teacher and lawyer will work with and socialise with folk with a range of political and social views and life experiences. This arguably makes them better surgeons, lawyers and teachers and would do the same for politicians.

What would prevent young prospective politicians from socialising in the same fashion as everyone else?

Why would high performing individuals, as an inevitably, succumb to group-think and does relative youth exacerbate this?

If the answers are nothing, they don't and no, I'm afraid to say that you may well be edging towards territory inhabited by the stereotypical da.

 

[BigDoddyKane]

I would say its a balance thats probably needed, if nowadays nearly every mp is following the same route thats the problem. Not so much what route it is

[Billy Jean King]

How many current MSPs came through the politics degree background ?

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, Arabdownunder said:

I think the point is that if someone goes to uni, studies politics and centres their social life around the Young <insert party>, then gets a job as a political adviser and works their way up to being an MP, their entire adult life experience is dominated by interactions with other party members and the political machine, most of whom have shared the same pathway. As well as their work, their outside of work life also becomes dominated by party meetings, fundraisers and social events. Its then almost inevitable that they get caught up in the ideological group-think of that party and view every issue through a party political lens. 

The rest of us, including @Fullerene's surgeon and @Antlion's teacher and lawyer will work with and socialise with folk with a range of political and social views and life experiences. This arguably makes them better surgeons, lawyers and teachers and would do the same for politicians.

What actual evidence do you have to support the claim that people who study Politics and then become an elected politician have no shared 'life experience' with others? 

Doctors are arguably much more cliquey when it comes to completing their demanding and specialised set of medical exams, than a Politics undergrad who most likely only takes that specialism after two/three years of fannying around the Student Union and completing a selection of Humanities/Social Sciences courses first. 

[dirty dingus]

I think soggy biscuits and sticking your wang in a pigs mouth would be classed as life experiences. 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, BigDoddyKane said:

I would say its a balance thats probably needed, if nowadays nearly every mp is following the same route thats the problem. Not so much what route it is

You get a balance of cliquey weirdos and normal folk, I reckon, in any walk of life and in any occupation. No doubt we’ve all known gimps who tried to get into politics at school or Uni and went on to become the arse-kissing cultists who are all over social media trying to promote their local candidate (I actually find this with Labour more than most, but maybe that says something about where I went to school/Uni). However, I also know politically-active members of parties/politicians (including Labour) who are normal people who occasionally socialise with work folk.

Politics has basically become professionalised, like a lot of jobs and sectors. You can argue either way whether it’s a good or a bad thing, but it’s a thing. No point criticising the folk who see it for the viable career path which, currently, it is.*

* Unless they’re ermine-chasing Tories, in which case they can go and suck off landmines.

[Salt n Vinegar]

35 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

I think soggy biscuits and sticking your wang in a pigs mouth would be classed as life experiences. 

No, that's not the route for the "average" MP. I think you are referring to the advanced course taken only by potential Prime Ministers. 

[Arabdownunder]

2 hours ago, sophia said:

What would prevent young prospective politicians from socialising in the same fashion as everyone else?

Why would high performing individuals, as an inevitably, succumb to group-think and does relative youth exacerbate this?

If the answers are nothing, they don't and no, I'm afraid to say that you may well be edging towards territory inhabited by the stereotypical da.

 

1. Because their focus on political ambition leads them to seek out social opportunities which advance their standing in the party and they neglect other social avenues 

2. Because succumbing to group think increases their standing in that environment and advances their ambitions.  

3. Not sure what youth has to do with it.

I'm not arguing that all politicians follow this path, but there is a significant number of them that do, in all countries and all parties. They typically form the back bench lobby fodder who only come into prominence when they say something stupid like "I can't live on £82k a year". Which is where we started this conversation. 

[BigDoddyKane]

Stupid question maybe but do you think voting could be overhauled, are political parties as something to vote for past their sell by dates?

Could people voting on more direct things work nowadays with some structure and rules to it. Could it have more impact on the day to day and improve things quicker or would that be just as shite

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Soapy FFC]

My main concern about the 'career' politician is that there is a danger of them forgetting that they first and foremost have a job to represent those that elect them, rather than a job to advance their career. Pursuing a career can lead to people making decisions that are best for them rather than best for their constituents. I'm not saying every politician is like this, but there are politicians (of all political persuasions) that are like this.

We need a mix of people as MPs. Not just university educated, but also those like Senga from the hairdressers down the road. Politicians are the ones making the rules,  and to make good rules you need a wide base of opinion, not just those of a small clique. Most other professionals apply and work within the laid down rules and boundaries of their profession whether they are surgeons, lawyers or teachers, so the fact that they might seem to be in a clique is less of an issue, after all you would not ask a lawyer their advice on a medical matter.

Asking if going to university, getting a medical degree, and working in a hospital makes someone unsuitable to be a surgeon, then no it doesn't, in fact it's absolutely vital that surgeons do that as medicine is a competency based job. No one would want to be operated on by someone who has not gone down that route. However politicians are different. There is no competency based test for someone to become an MP. Maybe there should be, but if you go down that route of, say, needing a degree to become an MP, then you have closed off a great part of the country from every going into politics. Surely this wouldn't be good for our democracy.

 

 

[Dunfermline Don]

Was it Billy Connolly who was said that the fact someone wanted to be a politician should immediately disqualify them from ever being one.

How about everyone gets a chance to serve as an MP, councillor, MSP etc on a similar way that people are selected for jury service. I can’t see that causing too many problems. I could certainly live on £82k and have a few mates in London who could let me kip on their sofa saving a bit on expenses! [emoji2957]

[sparky88]

3 minutes ago, Dunfermline Don said:

Was it Billy Connolly who was said that the fact someone wanted to be a politician should immediately disqualify them from ever being one.

How about everyone gets a chance to serve as an MP, councillor, MSP etc on a similar way that people are selected for jury service. I can’t see that causing too many problems. I could certainly live on £82k and have a few mates in London who could let me kip on their sofa saving a bit on expenses!

This is the original form of democracy used in ancient Greece. Using elections is essentially a watered down form of democracy by comparison.  I can't see why, if it's ok for the legal system, why it can't be OK for politics. 

[DiegoDiego]

I can't see why, if it's ok for the legal system, why it can't be OK for politics. 

Can you really not see why?

My radical idea for the future of politics is a six month delay between general elections.

Any incoming MPs must spend 20hrs a week of those six months in their constituency holding meetings with the public.

Any outgoing MPs get six months of reprisal-free speaking of their mind/voting.