Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Casagolda]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

So, Alan Mannus..

Yes Please.

Seen it mentioned a few times, makes sense to be fair. At his age he'll probably want first team football which Saints can't promise him with Clark about. While we're on the lookout for the experienced and reliable keeper we've desperately needed since Randolph left about 5 years ago. Throw in the fact that Robinson will know him fairly well from his time as a coach with N.Ireland and it sounds entirely plausible.

As a wider point, given we're likely to see a lot of experienced first team players leave this summer signing a few solid, proven players at our level wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.

Oh and on Blyth, get him to f**k. Like to give folk a chance but it's pretty clear the guy's just utterly hopeless. Hopefully he wants to go back down South and we can mutually agree to part ways this summer. Lucas(mind him?) can follow him as well, three contracts and we've managed one good game out him this season. 

Those two, plus Super Joe of course, should be the first to be shown the door this summer. 

[capt_oats]

I've never been a particularly huge fan of Mannus though that's just more because he's not really the *type* of goalkeeper I like but I can see why we'd go for him if he's available. Realistically he's probably as good a goalkeeper as we'd be likely to get just now.

Casagolda's mention about experienced players moving on got me thinking, I saw McManus at Fir Park alongside Moult for the u20s game against St Mirren last week and he looked as if he was moving very gingerly indeed. Given he's 34 as it is and turns 35 this year I wonder if this might throw up some issues. Whilst I don't think he's been as bad as some folk make him out to be he's still hardly been #flawless. Either way his injury has totally shown up the extent to which we've been relying on him for experience at the back.

One thing I'm quite curious about is what Robinson's preferred shape is and how much the 3 at the back he's been using has been a case of needs must. So far we've seen 343 (3412), 352 and 442.

Looking forward there's a very real chance that we could be looking at needing an entire new spine to the side once Samson, Lasley, Pearson and more than likely McDonald go. Plus question marks over McManus and Hammell's fitness and the inevitable departure of SuperJoe and the likelihood of Lionel moving on that's before the terrifying thought of Moult and all his goals leaving.

GK - ? +1

RB - Tait

RCB - Heneghan

LCB - (McManus)

LB - ? +1

RM - Cadden

RCM - ? (Campbell)

LCM - McHugh (+?)

LM - Frear (+?)

ST - ?

ST - Moult (Bowman)

2 new goalkeepers, 2 new left backs, an experienced centre half, 2 midfielders and potentially 2 new strikers. That is some rebuild job. I kind of alluded to it in my post the other day but I think we've possibly tried to be too clever with our recruitment. I'm fully on board with the whole "strategy" but to bring it back to Casagolda's post it'd be nice if we were able to just go out and bring in some solid, proven players at this level and build from that foundation, ideally working from the GK and back 4.

 

[dezz]

I've never been a particularly huge fan of Mannus though that's just more because he's not really the *type* of goalkeeper I like but I can see why we'd go for him if he's available. Realistically he's probably as good a goalkeeper as we'd be likely to get just now.
Casagolda's mention about experienced players moving on got me thinking, I saw McManus at Fir Park alongside Moult for the u20s game against St Mirren last week and he looked as if he was moving very gingerly indeed. Given he's 34 as it is and turns 35 this year I wonder if this might throw up some issues. Whilst I don't think he's been as bad as some folk make him out to be he's still hardly been #flawless. Either way his injury has totally shown up the extent to which we've been relying on him for experience at the back.
One thing I'm quite curious about is what Robinson's preferred shape is and how much the 3 at the back he's been using has been a case of needs must. So far we've seen 343 (3412), 352 and 442.
Looking forward there's a very real chance that we could be looking at needing an entire new spine to the side once Samson, Lasley, Pearson and more than likely McDonald go. Plus question marks over McManus and Hammell's fitness and the inevitable departure of SuperJoe and the likelihood of Lionel moving on that's before the terrifying thought of Moult and all his goals leaving.
GK - ? +1
RB - Tait
RCB - Heneghan
LCB - (McManus)
LB - ? +1
RM - Cadden
RCM - ? (Campbell)
LCM - McHugh (+?)
LM - Frear (+?)
ST - ?
ST - Moult (Bowman)
2 new goalkeepers, 2 new left backs, an experienced centre half, 2 midfielders and potentially 2 new strikers. That is some rebuild job. I kind of alluded to it in my post the other day but I think we've possibly tried to be too clever with our recruitment. I'm fully on board with the whole "strategy" but to bring it back to Casagolda's post it'd be nice if we were able to just go out and bring in some solid, proven players at this level and build from that foundation, ideally working from the GK and back 4.
 

Good play capt oats and I generally agree with you in regards to the areas we need to recruit although I'd throw in Ross McLean's name as well as I thought he look useful before his injury.

I also agree with your comments on our 'strategy'. I would be more than happy to go with a dependable and reliable, if more boring, back 4 and goalkeeper and utilise our 'strategy' for forward players.

Unless you have a read standout at the back then 9 times out of 10 an attacking player (goal scorer, creator, winger) is going to command a higher fee than a defender. For me we should be focusing the majority of our investment in these areas and go for reliability at the back.

[Del_Superwell]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

I've never been a particularly huge fan of Mannus though that's just more because he's not really the *type* of goalkeeper I like but I can see why we'd go for him if he's available. Realistically he's probably as good a goalkeeper as we'd be likely to get just now.

Casagolda's mention about experienced players moving on got me thinking, I saw McManus at Fir Park alongside Moult for the u20s game against St Mirren last week and he looked as if he was moving very gingerly indeed. Given he's 34 as it is and turns 35 this year I wonder if this might throw up some issues. Whilst I don't think he's been as bad as some folk make him out to be he's still hardly been #flawless. Either way his injury has totally shown up the extent to which we've been relying on him for experience at the back.

One thing I'm quite curious about is what Robinson's preferred shape is and how much the 3 at the back he's been using has been a case of needs must. So far we've seen 343 (3412), 352 and 442.

Looking forward there's a very real chance that we could be looking at needing an entire new spine to the side once Samson, Lasley, Pearson and more than likely McDonald go. Plus question marks over McManus and Hammell's fitness and the inevitable departure of SuperJoe and the likelihood of Lionel moving on that's before the terrifying thought of Moult and all his goals leaving.

GK - ? +1

RB - Tait

RCB - Heneghan

LCB - (McManus)

LB - ? +1

RM - Cadden

RCM - ? (Campbell)

LCM - McHugh (+?)

LM - Frear (+?)

ST - ?

ST - Moult (Bowman)

2 new goalkeepers, 2 new left backs, an experienced centre half, 2 midfielders and potentially 2 new strikers. That is some rebuild job. I kind of alluded to it in my post the other day but I think we've possibly tried to be too clever with our recruitment. I'm fully on board with the whole "strategy" but to bring it back to Casagolda's post it'd be nice if we were able to just go out and bring in some solid, proven players at this level and build from that foundation, ideally working from the GK and back 4.

 

McManus wont be back till next season at the earliest I've been told, it's case of taking time to get him right and get him back fit for pre season which at his age makes sense for me.  Hammell's legs have gone but given Chalmers is out of contract I think its safe to say he will go and we will sign a new left back either to go straight in ahead of Hammell or learn from Hammell during pre season then replace him.   

We have a decent base to work on from next season as we have, Tait, Heneghan, McManus, Hammell, Cadden, Clay, McHugh, Campbell, Frear, Moult, Bowman, Blyth (if not binned), MacLean, Thomas, Watt, Hastie, Gordon and Turnbull all under contract.  I suspect we may give Ferguson another year to cover defence as well.

[JockysJetpack]

Dropping this quiz off for you Well fans- have a shot at it and let me know how you get on and if anything needs a changing! 

Top-5 Motherwell goal scorers each season since 1998/99

Thank You.

https://www.sporcle.com/games/purplefrogg6/motherwell-top-5-scorers-since-9899

[Mr. Brightside]

81/105, out of the last 7 seasons the only player I missed was Vigurs, which says more about him than me.

[dezz]

74/105. Forgot Vigurs and Anier from recent season and couldn't remember nick Blackman's name for the life of me!

Also if anyone wonders why Ainsworth is a huge fan favourite at Fir Park, that quiz shows why. Ridiculous amount of goals for a guy that hasn't been a nailed on starter or a striker.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

82/105- literally the first time I've ever heard of Karl Ready.

[Mr Waldo]

Lucky you.

[well fan for life]

82/105- literally the first time I've ever heard of Karl Ready.

I wish I could say the same. Absolute cart horse.

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, Del_Superwell said:

McManus wont be back till next season at the earliest I've been told, it's case of taking time to get him right and get him back fit for pre season which at his age makes sense for me.  Hammell's legs have gone but given Chalmers is out of contract I think its safe to say he will go and we will sign a new left back either to go straight in ahead of Hammell or learn from Hammell during pre season then replace him.   

We have a decent base to work on from next season as we have, Tait, Heneghan, McManus, Hammell, Cadden, Clay, McHugh, Campbell, Frear, Moult, Bowman, Blyth (if not binned), MacLean, Thomas, Watt, Hastie, Gordon and Turnbull all under contract.  I suspect we may give Ferguson another year to cover defence as well.

Absolutely. I've no problem with them not rushing McManus back but given he'll be 35 this year there's surely a question mark over the extent to which an injury like this (the first serious one he's had since he's been at the club) might affect his performance levels. If we're able to bring in another experienced centre half then we absolutely should IMO. It's all *imagine if* but imagine if McManus had picked up this injury during the period McHugh was out with concussion? We would have been absolutely fucked at centre half.

The other point for me, and I'm loathe to sound overly harsh about this, is the base that we're working from is currently 10th in the league and has struggled all season with Moult and McDonald pretty much keeping our heads above water. Between them Moult and McDonald have scored more goals (27) than the rest of our squad put together (21) this season and defensively we have the 2nd worst goals against record in the league and that's with our first choice keeper and back 4 having been available for the majority of games.

I like players like Tait, McHugh, Campbell, Cadden, Frear et al and having a season to bed in you'd hope they'd kick on but as I've said before I hope that this season has been an eye-opener of the club in terms of the limitations of the squad and also the extent to which their approach to recruitment could/should be reappraised/improved/modified.

[Del_Superwell]

I agree, I think we will see a difference in recruitment from Robinson in terms of the sort of player he looks for compared to McGhee.  I also look back at Oldham the first signing he made was getting in a decent keeper in Connor Ripley, so It wouldn't surprise me if that's one of the first thing he addresses.  If you have a fairly solid keeper then its a good basis to build upon, I would definitely sign another centre back with some experience that can either come in for competition to Heneghan or McManus and being able to adequately replace them if they have injury or suspension.

[Tamdunk]

Rangers & St Johnstone have our number, Celtic & Aberdeen have been really good this season and we've been a bit unlucky playing hearts when they've been in good form. We've not been too bad against the teams around us, other than maybe Dundee, who I think we'll finally beat.

[Casagolda]

On 19/04/2017 at 18:45, capt_oats said:

2 new goalkeepers, 2 new left backs, an experienced centre half, 2 midfielders and potentially 2 new strikers. That is some rebuild job. I kind of alluded to it in my post the other day but I think we've possibly tried to be too clever with our recruitment. I'm fully on board with the whole "strategy" but to bring it back to Casagolda's post it'd be nice if we were able to just go out and bring in some solid, proven players at this level and build from that foundation, ideally working from the GK and back 4.

It is going to have to be some rebuilding job this summer and unfortunately for Robinson it's fallen upon him. For years we've watched the inevitable decline of the squad as time caught up with numerous players and we've always just patched it up and kept going. We're now at the stage where we can't delay the inevitable any longer and instead of doing it gradually and phasing players out over the last few years, we look like we're going to have to try and replace them all in one summer. 

I don't envy Robinson, especially with our budget. You also look at his time at Oldham and he faced a similar, albeit probably an even more extreme, rebuilding job there. Funnily enough I'm pretty sure his first three signings there were Connor Ripley, Josh Law and Lee Erwin...

Be interesting to see his approach to things this summer, assuming we stay up of course. Fair to say our signing policy has been more miss than hit in recent years and when you look at the players we're likely to lose this summer, we can't really afford to get as wrong as we have in previous years.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Casagolda

[nsr]

David Ferrere is in there

[thisGRAEME]

16 minutes ago, nsr said:

David Ferrere is in there

Fuckin Bob Malcolm is in there.

[mjw]

FTP Bob Malcolm is in there.

FTFY.

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, Casagolda said:

It is going to have to be some rebuilding job this summer and unfortunately for Robinson it's fallen upon him. For years we've watched the inevitable decline of the squad as time caught up with numerous players and we've always just patched it up the and kept going. We're now at the stage where we can't delay the inevitable any longer and instead of doing it gradually and phasing players out over the last few years, we look like we're going to have to try and replace them all in one summer. 

I don't envy Robinson, especially with our budget. You also look at his time at Oldham and he faced a similar, albeit probably an even more extreme, rebuilding job there. Funnily enough I'm pretty sure his first three signings there were Connor Ripley, Josh Law and Lee Erwin...

Be interesting to see his approach to things this summer, assuming we stay up of course. Fair to say our signing policy has been more miss than hit in recent years and when you look at the players we're likely to lose this summer, we can't really afford to get as wrong as we have in previous years.

Yeah, the Oldham situation was wild. IIRC he inherited a squad of 3 first team players or something 3 weeks before the season started. In that respect his signing policy there seemed to be quite literally "we'll take who we can get" and in that respect signing players he'd worked with before in Ripley (who has been outstanding for them by all accounts), Law and Erwin is understandable. I pretty sure there was also some sort of transfer embargo came into play at some point too.

I'm still quite undecided about the "success rate" of our signing policy tbh Moult and Johnson being the obvious stand-outs, it really depends on whether you're distinguishing between "ability" and "squad role" I suppose. McHugh looks good and captain material, Frear seems to have potential and I'm a fan of Tait but guys like Bowman who were actually brought in for the first team look to have struggled with the step up and I remain to be convinced by Heneghan. I mean he's been alright but he's 23 and his game is absolutely littered with pretty glaring deficiencies. Having said that he's been asked to play week in week out regardless of form or injury. 

There's probably a pretty reasonable % (probably far too many) of our signings fall into the "bang average, have done a job & filled a jersey" category but the number who you'd say have genuinely improved the side is fewer and really that's where we need to be better IMO.

Sifting through the dross you've got guys like Wes Fletcher, Jacob Blyth, Joe Chalmers, Craig Clay, Jake Taylor, Morgaro Gomis and FA Cup Hero Theo Robinson etc. Unlike someone like Lucas, who I'm pretty sure we've just taken as a punt and felt would at worst offer some cover or Belic who'd be in the same mould players like Taylor and Gomis were brought to contribute to the first team and they offered very little. OK Gomis was last minute because the Grimshaw deal fell through but even still... Craig Clay's started 32 games this season when he should at best be a squad player to offer cover from the bench (IMO). It took that 5-1 horror show against Dundee at Fir Park for someone to finally make a decision on Joe Chalmers.

One thing I would say is that when there was talk in January about McDonald being tempted with his return to Australia it seems we were looking at players like Christie and Ciftci to replace him albeit on loan. That suggests that at the very least we're aware that someone like Skippy is a key player and isn't going to be someone we'll be able to moneyball our way to replacing with some jobber from the National League.

Edit to add: I suppose as an extension to the point about Clay above is whether he'd have started as many had McHugh been fit but as a general point it's probably worth highlighting all the same.

Edited April 21, 2017 by capt_oats

[Del_Superwell]

4 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Yeah, the Oldham situation was wild. IIRC he inherited a squad of 3 first team players or something 3 weeks before the season started. In that respect his signing policy there seemed to be quite literally "we'll take who we can get" and in that respect signing players he'd worked with before in Ripley (who has been outstanding for them by all accounts), Law and Erwin is understandable. I pretty sure there was also some sort of transfer embargo came into play at some point too.

I'm still quite undecided about the "success rate" of our signing policy tbh Moult and Johnson being the obvious stand-outs, it really depends on whether you're distinguishing between "ability" and "squad role" I suppose. McHugh looks good and captain material, Frear seems to have potential and I'm a fan of Tait but guys like Bowman who were actually brought in for the first team look to have struggled with the step up and I remain to be convinced by Heneghan. I mean he's been alright but he's 23 and his game is absolutely littered with pretty glaring deficiencies. Having said that he's been asked to play week in week out regardless of form or injury. 

There's probably a pretty reasonable % (probably far too many) of our signings fall into the "bang average, have done a job & filled a jersey" category but the number who you'd say have genuinely improved the side is fewer and really that's where we need to be better IMO.

Sifting through the dross you've got guys like Wes Fletcher, Jacob Blyth, Joe Chalmers, Craig Clay, Jake Taylor, Morgaro Gomis and FA Cup Hero Theo Robinson etc. Unlike someone like Lucas, who I'm pretty sure we've just taken as a punt and felt would at worst offer some cover or Belic who'd be in the same mould players like Taylor and Gomis were brought to contribute to the first team and they offered very little. OK Gomis was last minute because the Grimshaw deal fell through but even still... Craig Clay's started 32 games this season when he should at best be a squad player to offer cover from the bench (IMO). It took that 5-1 horror show against Dundee at Fir Park for someone to finally make a decision on Joe Chalmers.

One thing I would say is that when there was talk in January about McDonald being tempted with his return to Australia it seems we were looking at players like Christie and Ciftci to replace him albeit on loan. That suggests that at the very least we're aware that someone like Skippy is a key player and isn't going to be someone we'll be able to moneyball our way to replacing with some jobber from the National League.

Edit to add: I suppose as an extension to the point about Clay above is whether he'd have started as many had McHugh been fit but as a general point it's probably worth highlighting all the same.

I agree with you especially on the Clay point I think we will sign another centre half this summer which will allow McHugh permanently to play in midfield which I reckon will be him and Campbell as our pairing going into next season and with Shea Gordon also on the fringes of the squad now I think we will see Clay either have his contract run down to be released or we may actually be actually able to flog him to a club willing to give him more games, but I don't see him playing a high number of games unless we have more bad luck with injuries etc.

[Casagolda]

On 21/04/2017 at 11:39, capt_oats said:

I'm still quite undecided about the "success rate" of our signing policy tbh

Having looked it up(what else you going to do on a boring Monday morning at work?) to the best of my knowledge we've made a quite remarkable 26 signings in the last two seasons alone.

Wes Fletcher, Kieran Kennedy, David Clarkson, Louis Laing, Jake Taylor, Joe Chalmers, Theo Robinson, Connor Ripley, Liam Grimshaw, Louis Moult, Craig Samson, James McFadden, Morgaro Gomis, Jacob Blyth, Ben Heneghan, Richard Tait, Lee Lucas, Dean Brill, Carl McHugh, Luka Belic, Craig Clay, Ryan Bowman, Russell Griffiths, Elliot Frear, Stephen Pearson and Zak Jules.

I mean there's a few good uns in there, a few alright ones that 'done a job' but I'd estimate that about half of them for one reason or another, have been total flops.

I know you're always going to get a few duds shopping in the markets we do with the budget we have but it's hard not to look at that list and think our money could have been invested a bit more wisely.