Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

35 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

I just miss him so much 

Honestly can't think of a Motherwell player who's been at the club as short a period of time and had as relatively indifferent an impact yet I've been as wholly invested in.

What a man.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Since we've apparently decided that stubbornly committing 100% to a playing style is the way forward, hopefully we go baws out in the opposite direction next time and field a team of eleven Ciftcis.

[Ludo*1]

What's going on with you lads? I had the relegation battle down as between Dundee, St Mirren, Hamilton and possibly St Johnstone at a push. Surprised to see you lot stuck in such a mire? Still positive vibes or are you stuck down this end with us?

[thisGRAEME]

My overall feeling is that we have to get Cadden out of wing-back, as it's absolutely killing us. 

I feel for him, because he's giving it whatever he can there, but you're asking him to do less of the best bit of his game, which is running fast and bodying people on the wing. Every time things have gone to shit and he's launched further forward he, and we, look dangerous, because everyone else up there is so one paced. His crossing has always been so-so, but the pace and power he has is something that no-one else in our squad has. If ATS isn't the guy to play wing-back, then stick Grimshaw or Rose ahead of him in a 4-4-2 so he's got some protection, but we've got to get some pace in the team. Teams know they can sit deep because no-one is going to get in behind.

I was watching the Betfred semi the other day and was struck by how high Cadden was in the game. Yes, his game has flaws and no, he hasn't kicked on as we'd hoped, but he's the only one that can stretch and move opposition defences about, so it'd be dead sound if we could stop fucking about with him there. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I still think Cadden was at his best when he played in a 3 under McGhee. Obviously he was alongside two of the best midfielders we've produced recently in Lasley and Pearson which maybe skewed things but still.  

I'm starting to think that 15/16 side were underappreciated at the time tbh.  That midfield 3 complimented each other perfectly. It's fucking madness to think we used to have Johnson, Moult, McDonald and Ainsworth at the same time.  Were absolutely desperate for a single player of that quality right now nevermind four. 

That shipping 13 goals in two games was a bit shan though tbf.

[capt_oats]

34 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I'm starting to think that 15/16 side were underappreciated at the time tbh.  That midfield 3 complimented each other perfectly. It's fucking madness to think we used to have Johnson, Moult, McDonald and Ainsworth at the same time.  Were absolutely desperate for a single player of that quality right now nevermind four. 

I was thinking that the other day when someone mentioned those players.

The 15/16 squad also had Josh Law, Louis Laing, Kieran Kennedy, Theo Robinson, Morgaro Gomis, Invisible Jake Taylor and Super Joe Chalmers tbf. So swings and roundabouts there.

If you were able to take last season's goalkeeper and defence and get them in a team alongside Johnson, Ainsworth, Moult and McDonald it'd have been some laugh.

Right now we don't even have a 33 year old James McFadden to come off the bench.

Edited October 8, 2018 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

What's going on with you lads? I had the relegation battle down as between Dundee, St Mirren, Hamilton and possibly St Johnstone at a push. Surprised to see you lot stuck in such a mire? Still positive vibes or are you stuck down this end with us?

There are probably a number of layers to this rather than one straight up answer you can point at tbh.

There's an element of the direct style of play having been found out a bit. There were games through the 2nd half of last season where it became apparent that we struggle to break teams down (Accies at NDP, Killie at FP being two obvious examples). That's really continued this season we've had narrow defeats against Aberdeen, Hearts and Accies some of which we've had better performances than others but the common theme has been that we haven't really created much, especially once if we've gone behind. Our go to tactic to try and rescue a result seems to be simply shelling the ball forward to one of our identikit frontmen and hope to benefit from their physicality.

I said earlier in the thread that I always felt this season was going to be a "difficult second album" sort of season for Robinson. He's the type of manager who you feel can organise a side and get them playing in a shape and structure and that's fine but the question for me and others is whether he can evolve and develop that enough to build on the other side of the game.

Of our 5 league losses this season 3 have been 1-0, 3 have been away from home (Easter Road, Pittodrie and Rugby Park) and a number of the goals we've shipped this season have been entirely self-inflicted.

All through last season, regardless of whether we won, lost or drew Robinson's post match interviews had a common theme "we need to look after the ball better". A lot of the discussion at the moment centres around that idea. The fact that he's 18 months in the job and still saying the same thing is problematic. We were off the back of 4 losses on the bounce on Saturday and our game plan was to treat the ball like a hot potato. One touch, then launch it forward in whichever way you're facing. It was about playing percentages and simply trying not to make mistakes. It was taking "going back to basics" to an incredible extreme.

The irony of course is that we took a point off the back of it and it was an absolute worldie that got Livi their equaliser. We've been better 'on the ball' in other games and lost.

The other thing is that for varying reasons our big players don't really seem to have turned up so far. Carson's not really looked to be at the same level he was last season, Hartley's coming back after 6 months out, we sold Kipré, Charlie Dunne's been out with a long term injury, Chris Cadden's limited to a RWB role (thisGRAEME covers that point a couple of posts up), Richard Tait's continuing to play LWB and up front Curtis Main's been off the boil since the Scottish Cup semi-final pretty much and the alternative to him is Conor Sammon so that can entirely GTF.

These are players who for the most part did well for Robinson last season but en masse seem to be struggling to find any sort of form. Our summer transfer window seems to have been entirely based on a "if it's not broken, don't fix" mindset. That clearly only works if those players step up though.

As you can probably tell from the most recent posts one of the main points of concern is we just don't have a lot of creativity, flair or simply quality. It's a bunch of solid 7/10 performers but none who'll change a game. The creative players we do have are either long term injured (Craig Tanner who loves a goal against #theDee but has his knee held together with sellotape just now), inconsistent and out of favour (Gael Bigirimana) or our u20 captain who's recently been promoted to the first team (David Turnbull).

All in all: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited October 8, 2018 by capt_oats

[Gianfranco]

Just want Nadir back.

[BigTamMuller]

I see the Nadir chat made it onto Well Fans 2. Sadly not met with the same love and enthusiasm as on here ...

 

[well fan for life]

I think @thisGRAEME hit the nail on the head. I like Cadden a lot but jamming him in to wing back is crippling the entire team. I think regardless of where you asked Cadds to play you'd get the exact same level of effort and desire, but he's just not got the nouse to skin a full back and cross a ball. 

To be perfectly honest this 3-5-2 is absolutely killing us. We've got absolutely no pace at the back, a RWB playing on the left to cram in a midfielder playing on the right and nobody linking play between midfield and two strikers. We need to sack it until we have the personnel to use it effectively. As a team we look so devoid of any confidence so we just see a team trying to leather the ball clear only for it to come right back on top of us. Nobody seems to want to take a risk in attack. Main doesn't look like he wants the ball and even less likely to take a dig, Bowman's first touch is spectacularly awful (Shout out to his shooting on Saturday as well. One stinker of a deflection and then passing the ball to the Livi keeper from 25 yards) and Sammon's on the bench where he rightly belongs. It seems we're almost pushing all our chips on to the return of Tanner but even when he comes back he'll need a few months before he's anything approaching match fit. 

I've also seen folk giving Donnelly pelters but he's absolutely not the worst in the team. Feels like he's just the current scapegoat of the month. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I just can't take to Donnelly because of that fucking awful beard.  It's only been a few years but we've went from stunning lads like Keith, Vigz and Handsome John to a team full of circus freaks.

[Busta Nut]

gotta agree with a lot of what's been said here.

3-5-2 is not how we should be playing.

Cadden is a strange one. He does look better when he's getting a chance in a more advanced role and as someone said, He was great on the right hand side of McGhee's mad lop sided midfield 3 (same with Grimshaw before he went to Preston).

What gets me about the team at the moment also is that there is nothing up front to get excited about. I don't think I have ever know us to be so one dimensional up top. Maybe harsh on Johnson and probably down to how we are playing but the forwards look severely lacking at points.

[thisGRAEME]

8 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I just can't take to Donnelly because of that fucking awful beard.  It's only been a few years but we've went from stunning lads like Keith, Vigz and Handsome John to a team full of circus freaks.

Bad take.

7 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Cadden is a strange one. He does look better when he's getting a chance in a more advanced role and as someone said, He was great on the right hand side of McGhee's mad lop sided midfield 3 (same with Grimshaw before he went to Preston).

Yep. The turnaround game at Tannadice where we looked close to the brink he was sensational, not through crossing or scoring, but through the sheer effort of just dragging the ball 40 or 50 yards up the park at every opportunity. It let us defend better and attack better, because he could carry the ball in a team that had fucking no-one else that can, which is much the same as we are now tbh.

Agree as much that the 3-5-2 doesn't work for us, but I think Cadden is the best example of it.

8 hours ago, well fan for life said:

To be perfectly honest this 3-5-2 is absolutely killing us. We've got absolutely no pace at the back, a RWB playing on the left to cram in a midfielder playing on the right and nobody linking play between midfield and two strikers. We need to sack it until we have the personnel to use it effectively. As a team we look so devoid of any confidence so we just see a team trying to leather the ball clear only for it to come right back on top of us.

Yeah, absolutely. You can say that the goal that we lost on Saturday was a freak one, and fair play to Jacobs for the hit, he was the best player on the park IMO, but it came from exactly the bolded bit above. I don't actually think we're defending terribly at the moment, but if you continually invite teams to come on to you for fifteen or twenty minutes at a time, which is exactly what we did by shelling the ball into the Livi half over and over again with no-one running on to it, or 'looking after the ball', then you'll concede. 

[well fan for life]

10 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I just can't take to Donnelly because of that fucking awful beard.  It's only been a few years but we've went from stunning lads like Keith, Vigz and Handsome John to a team full of circus freaks.

You shut your whore mouth.

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

Bad take.

Yep. The turnaround game at Tannadice where we looked close to the brink he was sensational, not through crossing or scoring, but through the sheer effort of just dragging the ball 40 or 50 yards up the park at every opportunity. It let us defend better and attack better, because he could carry the ball in a team that had fucking no-one else that can, which is much the same as we are now tbh.

Agree as much that the 3-5-2 doesn't work for us, but I think Cadden is the best example of it.

Yeah, absolutely. You can say that the goal that we lost on Saturday was a freak one, and fair play to Jacobs for the hit, he was the best player on the park IMO, but it came from exactly the bolded bit above. I don't actually think we're defending terribly at the moment, but if you continually invite teams to come on to you for fifteen or twenty minutes at a time, which is exactly what we did by shelling the ball into the Livi half over and over again with no-one running on to it, or 'looking after the ball', then you'll concede. 

FWIW I have absolutely no problems with playing long balls provided they have some direction/idea behind them. If we've got Bowman/Main/Johnson running channels and clipping balls into a useful area for them to work with then that's fine, but Saturday was utterly tragic. Folk just slashing at the ball to get it anywhere away from goal then dropping back 5 yards is horrendous.

And if Peter Hartley could stop giving away fucking stupid free kicks right at the edge of the box that would be dead sound.

[thisGRAEME]

20 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

FWIW I have absolutely no problems with playing long balls provided they have some direction/idea behind them. If we've got Bowman/Main/Johnson running channels and clipping balls into a useful area for them to work with then that's fine, but Saturday was utterly tragic. Folk just slashing at the ball to get it anywhere away from goal then dropping back 5 yards is horrendous.

And if Peter Hartley could stop giving away fucking stupid free kicks right at the edge of the box that would be dead sound.

Yep. I'm fully on record that BIG FIZZICUL FOOTBALL is something I'm entirely fine with, it's what we were and I enjoyed it loads, what we are now is garbage.

[Del_Superwell]

14 hours ago, BigTamMuller said:

I see the Nadir chat made it onto Well Fans 2. Sadly not met with the same love and enthusiasm as on here …

 

It was me who posted about Nadir, mostly for the sarcasm but he'd be a far better option than Sammon.   Nadir is currently plying his trade in the Turkish 1st division and has 3 goals in 6 games to his name as it stands.

[BigTamMuller]

3 minutes ago, Del_Superwell said:

It was me who posted about Nadir, mostly for the sarcasm but he'd be a far better option than Sammon.   Nadir is currently plying his trade in the Turkish 1st division and has 3 goals in 6 games to his name as it stands.

Haha you got a few bites anyway - wasn't slating your post btw, more the rather amusing responses when you consider we've got Sammon sitting on the bench (effectively replacing one 'maverick**' with another).

Will always be one of those "what if" scenarios - what if Robinson did get a full pre season out of him for us ...

 

** Not sure if I'd call Sammon a maverick in the same mould as Ciftci mind you.

[well fan for life]

Just now, BigTamMuller said:

Haha you got a few bites anyway - wasn't slating your post btw, more the rather amusing responses when you consider we've got Sammon sitting on the bench (effectively replacing one 'maverick**' with another).

Will always be one of those "what if" scenarios - what if Robinson did get a full pre season out of him for us ...

 

** Not sure if I'd call Sammon a maverick in the same mould as Ciftci mind you.

60 goals, untold amounts of piss boiled and I would have his face tattooed on me.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, BigTamMuller said:

Haha you got a few bites anyway - wasn't slating your post btw, more the rather amusing responses when you consider we've got Sammon sitting on the bench (effectively replacing one 'maverick**' with another).

Will always be one of those "what if" scenarios - what if Robinson did get a full pre season out of him for us ...

** Not sure if I'd call Sammon a maverick in the same mould as Ciftci mind you.

@well fan for life's comment about Bowman's first touch and the issues with the 352 got me thinking a bit more about Nadir compared to the options we have at the moment tbh.

For all his contributions were fairly limited and he clearly wasn't Moult he was still someone who we could hit and know he's be able to hold the ball in and lay it off or just link up play with one or two touches. Either that or he'd be able to draw a foul and get us up the park that way.

Right now we've just got two guys running around up front and watching as the ball comes straight back to us.

Not to pile on Sammon; I realise he was entirely out the picture at Hearts and that he's essentially swapped not being in the squad at Tynecastle for sitting on the bench at Fir Park but barring a miraculous turn around in fortune what are the chances of him actually still being here come January? I know he was announced as a season loan and he's out of contract at the end of the season but you'd hope there would be a break clause of sorts in there.

We're mid-way through October and while I get he was brought in to add a bit of depth as a Main-a-like he's clearly 4th choice striker behind Main, Bowman and Johnson. Given his signing is going pretty much as many anticipated having a player in on loan to sit on the bench for the rest of the season seems like a bit of a waste of time for everyone concerned.

Edited October 9, 2018 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

@well fan for life's comment about Bowman's first touch and the issues with the 352 got me thinking a bit more about Nadir compared to the options we have at the moment tbh.

For all his contributions were fairly limited and he clearly wasn't Moult he was still someone who we could hit and know he's be able to hold the ball in and lay it off or just link up play with one or two touches. Either that or he'd be able to draw a foul and get us up the park that way.

Right now we've just got two guys running around up front and watching as the ball comes straight back to us.

 

Even Main when he had a bit of confidence about him would be able to take the ball and hold it up/lay it off. At the minute he looks like he just doesn't want the ball. 

The lack of confidence anyone has this season is pretty miserable to watch. You can see every player on the park is terrified of misplacing a pass. I don't see a problem with that fear if you're defending your own box and just need to clear it, but I'd prefer someone took risks when we're going forward and tried to create a chance.

What I wouldn't give to get Lionel Ainsworth back in for the season to give us something different.