Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[CoF]

2 hours ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

If I remember correctly, he's not the most popular Motherwell player, which doesn't encourage me too much.

We're really just needing general cover in midfield after some injuries and sending loan players back, so if he can provide said balance in midfield that'd be fine tbh.

He’s one of those players who was a fairly promising youth, you blink and all of a sudden he’s 24 and hasnt really progressed.

I wouldn’t say he’s unpopular - no one really grumbles if he’s in and around the squad - but he’s definitely hit that age where fans are making their judgements on whether or not he’s cut out for this level. I think most agree he mostly looks a wee bit out of depth. I’d hedge my bets that the Championship is probably his level. He could do well for you. 

[RossBFaeDundee]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

That is broadly what he's been for us. I don't think he's necessarily an unpopular player here it's just more that he hasn't kicked on in the way his peer group did (Campbell, Turnbull, Cadden etc) and he hasn't really done enough to justify being a first pick in the starting XI.

Robinson pretty much gave up on him as a CB after St Johnstone scudded us 5-1 at FP and he hasn't really ever looked like cementing himself in the team as a midfielder.

He's really only been a sub under Hammell so in a way this isn't the most surprising news.

 

40 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Maguire's issue isn't that he's particularly bad but he has literally 0 stand out attributes.

A spell in the Championship might do him good but I wouldn't be disappointed to see him go if it meant we could bring in another midfielder (ideally a "number 6").

1 minute ago, CoF said:

He’s one of those players who was a fairly promising youth, you blink and all of a sudden he’s 24 and hasnt really progressed.

I wouldn’t say he’s unpopular - no one really grumbles if he’s in and around the squad - but he’s definitely hit that age where fans are making their judgements on whether or not he’s cut out for this level. I think most agree he mostly looks a wee bit out of depth. I’d hedge my bets that the Championship is probably his level. He could do well for you. 

Fair enough, I had it in my head that during the rougher moments for Motherwell last season that Maguire was the scapegoat of sorts for some, and just got unpopular vibes from that ever since. Hopefully it is the right move for both him and us if it goes ahead.

[Archie McSquackle]

2-0 to Raith now. Get your buckets and spades out, Kirkcaldy here we come!

[Phillips455]

I would assume that we would easily get 2,000 which would be around the maximum support I would expect from a tie like this?

[welldaft]

Probably for an easier chance of progression Rose would have been the better tie. But a small non league ground would have meant a ticket ballot and a chance of following Aberdeens embarrassing elimination. No thanks.

Starks has a plastic pitch but I believe has 9000 capacity. So should get the number of tickets we need for all fans to be accommodated. Also hoping it means less chance of being selected for TV so another 3pm Saturday KO .

Expect it will be tougher than Arbroath but hopefully we can be as professional. Looking forward to a trip back to Starks Park. Been a few times but not for over 20 years I suspect. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by welldaft

['WellDel]

9 minutes ago, Phillips455 said:

I would assume that we would easily get 2,000 which would be around the maximum support I would expect from a tie like this?

Been to Stark's before to watch a reserve game and the away stand looked a fair size, indeed a quick Google search would suggest the away (McDermid) holds approx 3,300. Nae need for the ticket scramble klaxon I don't think. 

[Richie]

I think McGuire is ok if he has time on the ball - He's a tidy enough player.

 

[capt_oats]

17 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Fair enough, I had it in my head that during the rougher moments for Motherwell last season that Maguire was the scapegoat of sorts for some, and just got unpopular vibes from that ever since. Hopefully it is the right move for both him and us if it goes ahead.

Yeah, I can see how you might have got that impression. As others have said I think a fair bit of that is a frustration at him not really progressing in the same way the group he played with did and also the fact that while he's been fine in games he's never really performed in such a way where it's felt like he's made a position his own.

Fwiw, he actually missed the 2nd half of last season which is when our form went off a cliff so absolutely none of that particular shitshow is on him.

[wellboy1991]

Anyone got any update of info from tonight’s AGM? 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I place Maguire in a similar vein to Shields in that he's fast, works hard enough and is physically fit, but simply just isn't good enough to be effective in our team.

I don't think he has an identity as a central midfielder - he doesn't score or create goals, he's not a holding player, he's not box to box. 

He's also going to be 25 this year, I think we need to admit this one's not worked out.

[capt_oats]

What interests me about the Maguire link is that so far the trend we’ve seen this window seems to have been like for like:

Aarons out, Crankshaw in
Moult out, Mandron in
Penney out, ?

Hammell’s already suggested publicly that we’re looking for an alternative left back in the event Penney went elsewhere.

The fact that the Connor Shields loan story surfaced around the time that Brisbane’s manager all but confirmed the Danzaki deal suggests we’re swapping a player who’s been used out wide for an attacking midfielder who plays across the supporting 3 behind a #9.

Looking at our numbers for the 2 pivot roles in a 4231 we only have Goss, Slattery, Cornelius and Maguire so you’d think if one of them moves we’d be looking for a replacement coming in.

Beyond that the only two other players who are only getting limited game time are SOD and Morris.

[JamesP_81]

Aye Maguire is probably a couple of years overdue a good stint in a lower league team. He's not got any glaring weaknesses and looks a tidy player but without having any standout qualities either. Definitely one where I think hovering about the fringes of the first team for a few years whether on his part feeling he wants to stay and break into the first team or by necessity holding onto him as a squad filler has hampered his development.  Maybe a year at Dundee could transform him and allow him to take his game to the next level but at nearly 25 I'm thinking maybe not , should be a perfectly serviceable championship midfielder tho.  

['WellDel]

18 minutes ago, JamesP_81 said:

Aye Maguire is probably a couple of years overdue a good stint in a lower league team. He's not got any glaring weaknesses and looks a tidy player but without having any standout qualities either. Definitely one where I think hovering about the fringes of the first team for a few years whether on his part feeling he wants to stay and break into the first team or by necessity holding onto him as a squad filler has hampered his development.  Maybe a year at Dundee could transform him and allow him to take his game to the next level but at nearly 25 I'm thinking maybe not , should be a perfectly serviceable championship midfielder tho.  

Aye, this is it. He should have been fired out on loan to try and get a run of games as far back as Robinson's time. 5 years or so flirting around the edges of the first 11 without ever being able to pin down a regular starting berth has served neither the boy himself or the club well.

At 25ish it's looking increasingly unlikely that it's going to happen for him here now, and best of luck to him at Dundee if the loan comes off. Pretty sure he's more than capable of holding his own a league down.

[Kapowzer]

Monster AGM post incoming (all from memory so if errors or omissions and you were there please add) they will also be out of order.

 

Started with Hammy fielding questions first as he had to shoot off. Lasted about an hour and some of the stuff covered included:

I'll start by saying Hammy was a lot more passionate than I expected. While coming across well it always seems measured. Tonight he made his points well and made it clear he never felt he was out his depth. Flao added that likewise for him when he took the CEO mantle he could reach out to others, Hammy does have access to experienced backup within the club in Kerr and Kettlewell plus a few others.

Hammy was asked about youth players and if 10 minutes (in the case of Luca Ross at Ibrox then never to be seen again was helpful). He explained that his involvement was earlier than he liked and purely down to personnel he had available so hand was forced.

Admitted Dean has a legitimate reason to be a bit miffed at the amount of minutes he's got but said a lot of other players (admittedly due to necessity on occasion) have had plenty of time to show why they should be included.

McKinstry enjoy's it here as you'd expect. Bielsa was a fan at Leeds, new guy not so much. Leeds will want to cash in on him even if it pays the compo we're owed. 6 months left there. Time will tell.

Max Johnson is one Hammy see's as a major asset for the club. Says all he wants to do is play football and doesn't have his head turned. Keen to get that over the line.

They are really hopeful for the squad that Miller is part of, potentially a good number making the step to first team. That squad is a high water mark in the cycle of expected stars however. Flao added normally we'd hope to take advantage of players breaking through at 18-20 for a year or two but that was denied to the club with the transfers out of McKinstry and McAleese, unlike for Turnbull and Wee Al.

Went on again about how the club faces a very different environment with player recruitment from only 5 years ago. Brexit certainly changed the goalposts massively. BIgger clubs circle us like sharks around a life raft.

He was asked how Danzaki was scouted. "Basically that they'd invested in the scouting software and were now able (and required) to cast the net into wider global markets to recruit." It's what allowed us to find Sol and Efford (courtesy @Pettigrew)

SOD been carrying a knock ... why he's not featured ...

There was a whole complex reason for McGinley not about and alluded it wasn't physical.

Was asked why Blaney featured for the first time on Saturday. Explained the Irish season finished just before the World Cup. Blaney then had 5 weeks off and we have spent the time since as his preseason, hampered by a few reserve games being called off that would have been used to increase hit match fitness.

Tierney's use was questioned and Hammy conveyed he felt he was still a project, expected to really come into his own in the next 6-12 months. Needs a good surface so introducing him in physical games on a claggy pitch in Arbroath it was felt would be wrong. Needs to build up more physically.

Asked if he had true leaders on the park and players who set high performance standards, said it was lacking but character was a high factor in his recruitment considerations and will be going forward.

Surprisingly nobody asked about Morris.

No moonhowler questions on dugouts or short by-kicks.

 

Moved to Flao and McMahon primarily for the financials:

A few forensic questions on why things were done in certain way in the accounts. Essentially Scottish government loan has to be used to offset covid related issues. The business interruption insurance had to be put through the books in a certain way to ensure the insurer paid out. It's why season tickets were offered for free in 2021/22.

When pressed further on the loan McMahon said he felt it was an asset to have the funds available at a very low cost to repay. He took exception to maybe a poorly worded question and conveyed that the club has been run well of late, citing in the past 5 years we've made £5m profit. He asked how could that be considered poorly run.

(Courtesy @swello)

"The biggest/most important thing to take from the AGM is that the model that has served us well recently - selling our home produced players effectively, having some on-field "success" and having 'Well society funds as a backstop - is running out of road. 

Some of this is likely to be because our production line of young players has skipped a generation (ie - the gap between the Turnbull-Campbell generation and the current 16 year olds which the club are very confident about) due to covid but maybe also a failure to replicate the environment that Crags had with his squad.

The main issues though are what was already apparent - english lower league market has seen a mental wage spike due to Brexit turning off the foreigners tap and so we can't get the standard of player we could have got in the past (and we are paying a lot more for what we're getting).

Secondly (and probably most importantly), we are being financially out-muscled in our own league in a way that we weren't in the past. Leaving the OF aside, there are a bunch of clubs that owners/benefactors are happy to underwrite large losses each year and it effectively leaves St Mirren and Us (and I assume Livi although they didn't come up) with no-one pumping in free money - or being there as an emergency backstop (and I would put St Johnstone and Killie in this bracket rather than the Aberdeen/Hibs/Utd/Hearts one).

Brexit isn't going away, people willing to fund  3, 4, 5 million quid losses annually are here in the medium term at least and so our risk is that we can no longer generate enough money to be the mid-table type team we've been in recent years."

The chairman outlined a plan to target three groups, wealthy benefactor(s), business' ........ erm hold on ....... just go back to my post from last year and you'll see it all again, it was just reiterated. They plan to launch in the next 4 weeks. They went on to explain budgeting for 10th, no player sales, no cup runs results in a £650-750k loss. Ideally a combination or one of the above would/could make up that gap if we fail in sales and the cups which are never guaranteed. Questioned why it had been taken a year to implement and was advised Alexander, World Cup, etc. meant they wanted an opportune time. When pressed further McMahon held his hands up and said they did take ownership for the delay. Fair play.

Well society income per year is equivalent to the cost of stewarding.

Question on pitch maintenance and it going down as in the summers from now it is tinkering rather than full refurb. Flao said it would be £15-20k per summer from now on they assume down from £100-125k. They also hope to commercialise it more as it is more robust and we can host friendlies again in pre-season.

Asked about Turnbull and as Ange now uses him sparingly does it affect any future revenues for us. Flao said contractually no. Added undoubtedly his value isn't where it could be if he was a mainstay but 18 months to go on his contract was prime selling time (that is now).

Board agreed our TV deal is undervalued but not 5x as much as the American's at Aberdeen, Dundee United and Hibs believe.

 

Other things of note - The way Ross County and Dundee are run/go about things left our board scratching their heads on multiple occasions.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Kapowzer

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

2 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

Been to Stark's before to watch a reserve game and the away stand looked a fair size, indeed a quick Google search would suggest the away (McDermid) holds approx 3,300. Nae need for the ticket scramble klaxon I don't think. 

You could also have 500 seats in the railway stand if you need it.

[rowsdower]

13 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

No moonhowler questions on dugouts or short by-kicks.

No "announce" demands or requests to cut the dead wood?

[Kapowzer]

Just now, rowsdower said:

No "announce" demands or requests to cut the dead wood?

If they live streamed it and had a chatbox open maybe but in person it was mostly well behaved. Maybe happened in the boardroom after for chips, dips and nibbles but I didn't hang about.

[Handsome_Devil]

6 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

The chairman outlined a plan to target three groups, wealthy benefactor(s), business' ........ erm hold on ....... just go back to my post from last year and you'll see it all again, it was just reiterated. They plan to launch in the next 4 weeks. 

Thanks for the report.

I laughed at this as that was my thought as soon as I started reading this bit.

FWIW FirParkCorner said last year:

An examination is underway of the player development pathway.  Is it possible to find way to encourage investors (large and small) with the carrot of a reasonable return with the club retaining the bulk of transfer fees?  Can the cost to the club of the Academy be reduced?

The third route to future funding might be found by making use of the fan based club’s stance on major issues to encourage commercial (brands that match the club’s ideals) and personal interest from home and abroad. 

[Pettigrew]

7 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

He was asked how Danzaki was scouted. I missed the answer to this as my phone went off and I tried to silence it in a panic. Maybe someone can add.

 

Basically that they'd invested in the scouting software and were now able (and required) to cast the net into wider global markets to recruit.   Great summary above.

On Morris - he did talk about some that they were looking to move on who are under contract - assumed that was who he meant there.  

Flao also mentioned something on McKinstrey insofar as Leeds not being overly happy with the situation there - didn't quite catch that - did anyone?  

 

[Ceiling Granny]

7 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

They are really hopeful for the squad that Miller is part of, potentially a good number making the step to first team. That squad is a high water mark in the cycle of expected stars however. Flao added normally we'd hope to take advantage of players breaking through at 18-20 for a year or two but that was denied to the club with the transfers out of McKinstry and McAleese, unlike for Turnbull and Wee Al.

Went on again about how the club faces a very different environment with player recruitment from only 5 years ago. Brexit certainly changed the goalposts massively. BIgger clubs circle us like sharks around a life raft.

 

Thanks for the summary! I guess these two paragraphs together could be the issue. It’s all well and good to plan/anticipate a strong youth team coming through - but how do you stop bigger teams (especially with the budgets in England) swooping in before they reach first team. I don’t know the answer to this, but I guess it’s something we’ll need to give a lot of consideration to.