Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[ropy]

It depends who the candidates are, they aren’t going to be Robinson and McInnes.  If they are an unknown or done something in England but nothing in Scotland type then you are comparing that to a guy who has 18 months at Fir Park on his CV, who looks the most attractive? 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Even at our worst in the league earlier this season, I've more or less been of the "better the devil you know" mindset with Kettlewell. 

I wouldn't trust the board to successfully replace him, but then again we don't know who the board will be come May. 

What does make me torn though is that a finish of 10th or above come the end of the season, probably meets our expectations, but represents a good time for a natural parting of ways. Much like it was with Alexander a couple of seasons ago, which failure to part ways caused many of the issues we find ourselves in now.

With the number of players we will need to sign in the summer, I could see them not gelling right away (or even being in the door in time), us having a toxic league cup campaign and the pitchforks being out for Kettlewell before the league campaign has taken off.

Whatever happens it's a very crucial call to make.

Edited February 12 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[Cloontang]

10 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Kelly has made many more mistakes than Stevie Woods ever did. 

No chance, I still wake up at night in a cold sweat at night with him launching the ball straight at Gordon Durie in that Scottish Cup game with minutes remaining. Plus he loved to tee up Killie's Paul Wright frequently.

[eliphas]

10 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Kettlewell and Kelly can GTF in the summer. 

I'm done with them both.

Kelly has made many more mistakes than Stevie Woods ever did. There are still some comments out there defending Kelly.

Aye, not sure about that Woods stat, plus Kelly also had a very good season/season and half for us too which I don't remember Woods doing for us. 

But. 

I 100% do get your point and I am well at the end of my tether with him too.

He needs taken out the headlights for a wee while. He's very unlikely to get a shout for the Euros now so I don't think it would even dent those hopes.

[Neil86]

12 hours ago, Allroy for Prez said:

Not getting my hopes up but this would be my team v the sheep

Oxborough
McGinn Casey Blaney
Devine Davor Halliday Gent
Spittal Nicholson
Vale

 

Chances of that?  

wild you'd drop Bair

[capt_oats]

11 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

For me, I don't think washing our hands of Kettlewell is as easy it would be to look at e.g, a goalkeeper or club captain who had served the club reasonably well for a few years but was now out of contract and would probably do everybody a favour by moving on. With a manager I think you probably do have to take extenuating circumstances into account- IF Kettlewell gets us to 10th or above, I think you probably have to say that he's met most of our pre-season expectations and has at least proven himself to be a semi-competent Premiership manager over that period. In that situation I think you're probably better sticking with the guy who has at least spent a year clearing the decks and will be a bit more ahead in terms of planning for next season than we would be if we rolled the dice and appointed someone else in June.

McInnes obviously has much more of a track record but still finished 10th with Killie last season and they're seeing the benefits of sticking with him. Even County would probably be in a better position if they hadn't sacked Malky.

10 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Even at our worst in the league earlier this season, I've more or less been of the "better the devil you know" mindset with Kettlewell. 

I wouldn't trust the board to successfully replace him, but then again we don't know who the board will be come May. 

What does make me torn though is that a finish of 10th or above come the end of the season, probably meets our expectations, but represents a good time for a natural parting of ways. Much like it was with Alexander a couple of seasons ago, which failure to part ways caused many of the issues we find ourselves in now.

With the number of players we will need to sign in the summer, I could see them not gelling right away (or even being in the door in time), us having a toxic league cup campaign and the pitchforks being out for Kettlewell before the league campaign has taken off.

Whatever happens it's a very crucial call to make.

As others have said, it's fairly uncommon for managers to leave in the summer. Usually hiring and firing are dictated by factors through the season and I guess the planning aspect makes it less than ideal to go into a summer with all that stuff up in the air.

The last managers we've had to have left at that end of a campaign would (I think) be McGhee leaving for Aberdeen (succeeded by Gannon) and Malpas with whom we cut ties after one season of a three year deal (succeeded by McGhee).

Curiously enough we were sitting on the same number of points after the same number of games during the Malpas season as we are now (albeit we had lost more games than we have currently having scored fewer and conceded more).

Agree with @YassinMoutaouakil in so much as Kettlewell's situation feels a bit less straightforward than just cutting our losses as it feels slightly unfair to place restrictions on the manager that would limit his ability to do the job then shake his hand and hand him his P45. The general support aren't going to factor in that he's been asked to drastically reduce the numbers in the squad and get us to a place in which we're working on a lower playing budget than any of his recent predecessors but that's where we are.

To do so having lost Max Johnston and KVV as well means it feels like a big ask to have expectations of improving.

Then again, I suppose it's possible that there's a feeling that Kettlewell may be underperforming with the resources he has at hand.

For all it may be the case that the board may have been sympathetic to the extenuating circumstances around this season and given Kettlewell more modest targets eg: 10th or above is fine, as @crazylegsjoe_mfc says assuming everything goes to plan and nothing weird happens there should be a new Chairman and a new CEO along with a restructured board.

Essentially the people who set those targets may have been replaced and the people who actually gave him the job may not be at the club anymore.

It then becomes a question of whether we think Kettlewell is actually a good fit to oversee the rebuild - which is an entirely different job to being parachuted in to fix Hammell's shambles and generally steady things.

Edited February 13 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

Went to have a look for highlights of Oxborough in that QOTS game earlier in the season:

 

Not really much to go on for him. Mostly it's a stark reminder that Ricki Lamie was a complete donkey and Jon Obika's finishing is nearly as bad as his injury record. 

[Handsome_Devil]

13 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

The last managers we've had to have left at that end of a campaign would (I think) be McGhee leaving for Aberdeen (succeeded by Gannon) and Malpas with whom we cut our losses after one season of a three year deal (succeeded by McGhee).

Curiously enough we were sitting on the same number of points after the same number of games during the Malpas season as we are now (albeit we had lost more games than we have currently having scored fewer and conceded more).

I don't really remember the process with McGhee but iirc it took a while to sack Malpas after the season ended. Again, whether or not that was doing research into who was available or simply an eventual reaction to season ticket sales I can't mind either.

Obviously McGhee left when we'd have kept him so a different situation.

Regarding the Malpas comparison, for me the big difference is the attitude of the players. In 2007 there was no playoff and we were essentially safe with a win over Dunfermline late February or early March. The season then ended with a home cup loss to St J and the players downed tools. As long as the squad is still working for SK it keeps the decision in the balance, as does the (apparent) decline of the viable candidates.

 

[Ron Aldo]

I thought the Malpas season was bad. Maybe it's due to the passage of time (and that I was only 15 when Malpas was in charge) but the last 2 or 3 seasons have felt considerably worse for a multitude of reasons. 

[well fan for life]

2 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

I thought the Malpas season was bad. Maybe it's due to the passage of time (and that I was only 15 when Malpas was in charge) but the last 2 or 3 seasons have felt considerably worse for a multitude of reasons. 

I would honestly say the end of Alexander is the worst I've felt about going to watch Motherwell. Even including that Malpas season where we actually finished bottom, the football we played under Alexander was fucking miserable to watch. 

[Swello]

3 hours ago, Cloontang said:

No chance, I still wake up at night in a cold sweat at night with him launching the ball straight at Gordon Durie in that Scottish Cup game with minutes remaining. Plus he loved to tee up Killie's Paul Wright frequently.

I think I'm in the same boat as Busta here - Kelly has made some number of bad mistakes but has also not been stopping efforts that our better keepers simply would have. 

Woods made some high profile mistakes but also suffered as he wasn't Sieb Dykstra and the support never took to him. Kelly has had way more patience from the support. 

To me, Kelly and Woods are on a par overall but Kelly's levels have dropped hugely since he joined and going with him next season pretty much guarantees more of what we're seeing now and I'm really not up for that. 

[capt_oats]

Cool... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://offthepitch.com/

Edited February 13 by capt_oats

[Ron Aldo]

2 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Cool... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://offthepitch.com/

"This strategic collaboration will empower us with cutting-edge analytics tools and invaluable financial insights, propelling the club into a new era of data-driven decision-making." 

Well it can't be worse than the current "fling shite at the wall" decision making model. 

[Busta Nut]

What is this? An accountant? 

[thisGRAEME]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Agree with @YassinMoutaouakil in so much as Kettlewell's situation feels a bit less straightforward than just cutting our losses as it feels slightly unfair to place restrictions on the manager that would limit his ability to do the job then shake his hand and hand him his P45. The general support aren't going to factor in that he's been asked to drastically reduce the numbers in the squad and get us to a place in which we're working on a lower playing budget than any of his recent predecessors but that's where we are.

To do so having lost Max Johnston and KVV as well means it feels like a big ask to have expectations of improving.

Then again, I suppose it's possible that there's a feeling that Kettlewell may be underperforming with the resources he has at hand.

For all it may be the case that the board may have been sympathetic to the extenuating circumstances around this season and given Kettlewell more modest targets eg: 10th or above is fine, as @crazylegsjoe_mfc says assuming everything goes to plan and nothing weird happens there should be a new Chairman and a new CEO along with a restructured board.

Essentially the people who set those targets may have been replaced and the people who actually gave him the job may not be at the club anymore.

It then becomes a question of whether we think Kettlewell is actually a good fit to oversee the rebuild - which is an entirely different job to being parachuted in to fix Hammell's shambles and generally steady things.

If Kettlewell has us anywhere from 7th-10th, I would expect him to be here to kick off our League Cup group stage campaign, tbh, I think suggesting he'll be away is quite fanciful on the whole.

Certainly, judging by the transfer business in January and the players he's brought in, I'd very much assumed they were in the main brought along in an almost extended trial version of a deal to see what they can do for us, and whether we think they're worth extending for a longer term. Halliday already signed up beyond this year. Elliott and Nicholson in til the end of the season, Montgomery (who I think we've tried to get a couple of times?) in on loan with his deal expiring in the summer, Vale I think the same. I suspect Devine may be attainable as well. 

With SODs, Spittal, Kelly, Slattery, Mugabi, Obika and Butcher all out of contract in the summer, that's basically anyone that even might be on a decent wage for us potentially away. It also is leaving an enormous gap in experience if we're waving them all out the door.

We're clearly gambling a bit on Ross County and Livingston continuing to be terrible. IMO, Kettlewell is starting to build the squad because he (I suppose rightfully, to me?) assumes he will be here in June for the start of the league season, otherwise I'm not sure why he would be allowed/encouraged to do a longer term deal for guys like Halliday.

[Busta Nut]

5 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

If Kettlewell has us anywhere from 7th-10th, I would expect him to be here to kick off our League Cup group stage campaign, tbh, I think suggesting he'll be away is quite fanciful on the whole.

my personal opinion aside. This is it.

[Cloontang]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

I think I'm in the same boat as Busta here - Kelly has made some number of bad mistakes but has also not been stopping efforts that our better keepers simply would have. 

Woods made some high profile mistakes but also suffered as he wasn't Sieb Dykstra and the support never took to him. Kelly has had way more patience from the support. 

To me, Kelly and Woods are on a par overall but Kelly's levels have dropped hugely since he joined and going with him next season pretty much guarantees more of what we're seeing now and I'm really not up for that. 

Fair do's. Despite his form this season I would still suggest Kelly is far superior than Woods. Some of the stops that we have seen from Kelly have been incredible thats probably why he has had more patience as he has proved he is more than capable.

Woods was at Fir Park for 9 years and outwith his first season at Fir Park I don't think he was really ever considered first choice material. He was probably fortunate for the 1997/98 season as Scott Howie left us in the lurch at the very last minute and we did not have a curdy to bring anyone in and the admin season would see him battle it out with Dubourdeau. I know he has many years service here than Kelly but I could rhyme off the many disasters he caused, imo Woods is probably just above John Gardiner in goalkeeping quality.

[Al B]

2 hours ago, well fan for life said:

Even including that Malpas season where we actually finished bottom, the football we played under Alexander was fucking miserable to watch. 

As shite and depressing as it was, we actually finished 10th in the Malpas season somehow!

[Handsome_Devil]

57 minutes ago, Cloontang said:

Fair do's. Despite his form this season I would still suggest Kelly is far superior than Woods. Some of the stops that we have seen from Kelly have been incredible thats probably why he has had more patience as he has proved he is more than capable.

He certainly was far superior to Woods but that gap is narrowing at an alarming rate.

I'm not too hung up on save percentage as a stat but his efforts on crosses are becoming increasingly Woods-esque and it's fatal.

When Kelly was good, nobody expected him to behave like peak Dykstra but came and took - or at least punched - what came into the six-yard box. The defence could hold a just about reasonable line and attack the rest. Fine.

When he's out of form and confidence, however, he's become absolutely glued to his line. The opposition don't need to take brilliant set pieces, they just hit inside the six-yard box...our defence is immediately in deep trouble rushing towards the goal and it's pretty much inevitable that from doing that X times a game you'll scramble one in at least once.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

If Kettlewell has us anywhere from 7th-10th, I would expect him to be here to kick off our League Cup group stage campaign, tbh, I think suggesting he'll be away is quite fanciful on the whole.

Certainly, judging by the transfer business in January and the players he's brought in, I'd very much assumed they were in the main brought along in an almost extended trial version of a deal to see what they can do for us, and whether we think they're worth extending for a longer term. Halliday already signed up beyond this year. Elliott and Nicholson in til the end of the season, Montgomery (who I think we've tried to get a couple of times?) in on loan with his deal expiring in the summer, Vale I think the same. I suspect Devine may be attainable as well. 

With SODs, Spittal, Kelly, Slattery, Mugabi, Obika and Butcher all out of contract in the summer, that's basically anyone that even might be on a decent wage for us potentially away. It also is leaving an enormous gap in experience if we're waving them all out the door.

We're clearly gambling a bit on Ross County and Livingston continuing to be terrible. IMO, Kettlewell is starting to build the squad because he (I suppose rightfully, to me?) assumes he will be here in June for the start of the league season, otherwise I'm not sure why he would be allowed/encouraged to do a longer term deal for guys like Halliday.

Aye, I think there's a fair bit of mental gymnastics going on in terms of people projecting whatever their preferred outcome might be. Besides the fact that people's mileage will vary with Ketts I guess his being out of contract along with the uncertainty around the CEO/Board stuff is the wrinkle here.

There's a chance that his contract isn't renewed but I agree that it's pretty unlikely all things considered.