Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Swello]

Just now, 2426255 said:

The is an observable and direct relationship between changes of opinion and short term results. That's more the issue for me. The binary world of results are what's driving changes of opinions. That's where the winless run stat gripped the Motherwell faithful, it's what it's all about. I saw the exact same with Steve Clarke after Euro-2020.

If Kettlewell had made the changes you had wanted and recruited well on paper, but hadn't got results then would you have still wanted him in post? I suppose if the results weren't good then by default the recruitment isn't good.

I've seen people say it's okay to change your opinion and I agree with you, but what value does it hold if you change it, then change it back and repeatedly flip-flop. The only thing that it would say to me is you need to view it over a longer period of time.     

"Long term" in football doesn't mean the same as it does in an investment bank. Long term in football basically means >1 season - there is no club manager that is thinking of a 5 year plan as they will never be there to see it through (the Board should be thinking of that though). If you are on a poor run that lasts half a season, that is not Short Term either. In football terms, Kettlewell has actually gotten a lot of patience and there has never been a concerted campaign to sack him. Hammell who is/was an actual club legend got a far harder time last year.

Also - views that divorce football from irrationality and emotion don't hit the mark for me as they simply don't represent the vast majority of supporters and actual decision makers at clubs and so are entirely unrealistic. It's all very well as an academic exercise to say that everyone should take a cold, rational view of everything and that results shouldn't matter but that's the opposite of reality.

[StAndrew7]

43 minutes ago, Eliphas Pettigrew said:

Great to see Theo creeping into the top assists charts to accompany Spittal & Biereth 

If you'd told me at the start of the season he'd be contributing to a goal in 50% of his games, I'd have thought you were mad. Incredible the development he's shown over the season. I'm aware a lot of those are in the last what, 10 games or so, but still.

Deserves all the praise he's been getting of late. Even not having a great night last night, he put in a shift (he definitely looks fitter than he did in the last 20 mins of games) and put in an excellent ball for Vale; not sure he'd have managed that earlier in the season.

[Handsome_Devil]

7 minutes ago, eliphas said:

Watching us every week (most of the time) Vs every week pre Ross County drubbing is night and day. It's the little green shoots of improvement that I outlined that have changed my mind on Kettlewell as it shows, to me, he can change for the better. 

There's no doubt changes he's made - whether enforced or epiphanies - have helped win folk round regardless of results - which while back to ok-ish are still far from amazing.

The utter refusal to play a left-footed lwb for months, use the six he himself had signed, having no idea how to use Wilkinson who he signed etc suggested fundamental problems rather than short-term quirks.

Had we scrambled a draw at St Mirren and beat Livingston without addressing those, the potential redemption arc would not be swinging nearly so much.

[Swello]

The main things in my opinion that have kept the lid on it just about is that we've not been losing many, we've scarcely ever been humped (hence the decent goal difference) and the players have never downed tools for him at any point. Having Livi looking doomed has helped, as has a look at managerial changes that brought Adams in at County or the haunted pantomime dame at Pittodrie.

I also think there's a feeling that he's a decent enough guy that's doing his best but as Barraclough found out, that only takes you so far if all the other stuff mentioned goes south.

[StAndrew7]

2 minutes ago, Swello said:

I also think there's a feeling that he's a decent enough guy that's doing his best but as Barraclough found out, that only takes you so far if all the other stuff mentioned goes south.

My biggest issue with Barracuda (TM Stuart Carswell) was that he started to believe he was untouchable and could do what he wanted because he'd kept us up the season before.

It doesn't feel like Kettlewell is that kind of person/manager; he's always come across as pretty self-aware and willing to accept his failings and learn from them (even if that has taken longer than some of us would have liked).

[joewarkfanclub]

54 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

There's an observable and direct relationship between changes of opinion and short term results. That's more the issue for me. The binary world of results are what's driving changes of opinions. That's where the winless run stat gripped the Motherwell faithful and why the forum is more upbeat and relaxed today - it's what it's all about. I saw the exact same with Steve Clarke after Euro-2020.

If Kettlewell had made the changes you had wanted and recruited well on paper, but hadn't got results then would you have still wanted him in post? I suppose if the results weren't good then by default the recruitment isn't good. Isn't that how a fans mind works?

I've seen people say it's okay to change your opinion and I agree with you, but what value does it hold if you change it, then change it back and repeatedly flip-flop. The only thing that it would say to me is you need to view it over a longer period of time and that if Motherwell lose the next 2 or 3 games it'll change again.     

We know that managers are accountable for results, but we also know they aren't always the driver of those results. If you can look past just the results, factor in and accept the mitigating circumstances hampering the team then you know you'll come through it when conditions improve and for me with Steve Clarke at Scotland that was my interpretation back in 2021 and it's basically the same with Kettlewell at Motherwell just now. 

Amen brother!

[CoF]

f**k me, it’s fitba forum. If this isn’t the place for wild takes and irrational opinion  then where is?

Regardless, I actually think ‘well fans have by and large been quite sensible and balanced this season. Not like we’re gathering outside fir park throwing sharks about after a couple of bad results.  

Edited February 29 by CoF

[Wellwatcher]

Any idea when the result of the Well Society vote will be public?

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Bair's a weird player. He still never really seems to make the ball stick but he's strong, fast as f**k, a decent finisher and has put in a few very good crosses this season. I think it's probably about as likely that the last few months do turn out to be a- very helpful!- purple patch as it is that he kicks on and ends up at a higher level.

[2426255]

@eliphas Above is Motherwell's points per game over the season as a whole. Not only has the decline been arrested which lasted from September until December, but it has been turned round and is heading the other way from December until now rising from 0.84 to 1.04. Results have improved undoubtedly and it's not a surprise there is a softening of the views around Stuart Kettlewell. The relationship is an inverse fit.

It's obvious that results are the main driver of opinions on these forums, people get emotional and vent etc. I agree, you won't convince me, but I'll leave it there today - you can have the last word if you want.   

[thisGRAEME]

29 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Bair's a weird player. He still never really seems to make the ball stick but he's strong, fast as f**k, a decent finisher and has put in a few very good crosses this season. I think it's probably about as likely that the last few months do turn out to be a- very helpful!- purple patch as it is that he kicks on and ends up at a higher level.

Not a criticism of him, but teams playing a deeper line makes him less effective. His timing and finishing have been improving throughout the season to add to his more obvious physical traits of being a good big strong laddie and hard worker. Last night Livi had obviously learned from their last visit to Fir Park when he made the same run all day and should've had at least a hat-trick.

And that's fine, on the whole, just so long as we figure out a way of how else to exploit a team playing on their 18 yard line.

[Wellin]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

"Long term" in football doesn't mean the same as it does in an investment bank. Long term in football basically means >1 season - there is no club manager that is thinking of a 5 year plan as they will never be there to see it through (the Board should be thinking of that though). If you are on a poor run that lasts half a season, that is not Short Term either. In football terms, Kettlewell has actually gotten a lot of patience and there has never been a concerted campaign to sack him. Hammell who is/was an actual club legend got a far harder time last year.

Also - views that divorce football from irrationality and emotion don't hit the mark for me as they simply don't represent the vast majority of supporters and actual decision makers at clubs and so are entirely unrealistic. It's all very well as an academic exercise to say that everyone should take a cold, rational view of everything and that results shouldn't matter but that's the opposite of reality.

I personally dont agree that Hammell got a harder time. A lot of fans were very behind that appointment and Kettlewell in my view has had a far tougher time across social media than Hammell got even when it was clear things weren't working out. I also think the fact that Hammell was a club legend should be completely irrelevant. If Hammell had actually faced the media after the cup defeat then he might have got more time to try and turn things around. 

I saw it suggested elsewhere on here that Hammell had lost the dressing room. It doesn't look like the players have stopped trying under Kettlewell. Not that I'm suggesting that players should be giving up. 

 

[thisGRAEME]

22 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

@eliphas Above is Motherwell's points per game over the season as a whole. Not only has the decline been arrested which lasted from September until December, but it has been turned round and is heading the other way from December until now rising from 0.84 to 1.04. Results have improved undoubtedly and it's not a surprise there is a softening of the views around Stuart Kettlewell. The relationship is an inverse fit.

It's obvious that results are the main driver of opinions on these forums, people get emotional and vent etc. I agree, you won't convince me, but I'll leave it there today - you can have the last word if you want.   

[Swello]

7 minutes ago, Wellin said:

I personally dont agree that Hammell got a harder time. A lot of fans were very behind that appointment and Kettlewell in my view has had a far tougher time across social media than Hammell got even when it was clear things weren't working out. I also think the fact that Hammell was a club legend should be completely irrelevant. If Hammell had actually faced the media after the cup defeat then he might have got more time to try and turn things around. 

I saw it suggested elsewhere on here that Hammell had lost the dressing room. It doesn't look like the players have stopped trying under Kettlewell. Not that I'm suggesting that players should be giving up. 

 

Hammell's appointment was popular at the time of course - but I was meaning the atmosphere when it became clear that he was out his depth as a first team manager - it was way more toxic than anything seen this season (it was even worse with Alexander of course).

[Wellin]

Just now, Swello said:

Hammell's appointment was popular at the time of course - but I was meaning the atmosphere when it became clear that he was out his depth as a first team manager - it was way more toxic than anything seen this season (it was even worse with Alexander of course).

The stuff I've seen on Facebook and twitter in particular re Kettlewell has just been way over the top in my view and it's been going on for months. I honestly look at some peoples tweets and wonder why they support the club. Btw I'm not trying to suggest that fans can't have opinions but last night the team selection went up on twitter and out come people criticising -and we've not kicked a ball. 

[StAndrew7]

9 minutes ago, Swello said:

Hammell's appointment was popular at the time of course - but I was meaning the atmosphere when it became clear that he was out his depth as a first team manager - it was way more toxic than anything seen this season (it was even worse with Alexander of course).

I would tend to agree with both you and Wellin here; I think Kettlewell has been on the receiving end of a consistent period of abuse/vitriol from various sections of the fan base (and I include myself in that) over the course of the season. The difference with Hammell was it was in a short, and very sharp period that it escalated almost unanimously within the support. There have been rumblings about Kettlewell throughout the season, but perhaps not to the same degree.

4 minutes ago, Wellin said:

The stuff I've seen on Facebook and twitter in particular re Kettlewell has just been way over the top in my view and it's been going on for months. I honestly look at some peoples tweets and wonder why they support the club. Btw I'm not trying to suggest that fans can't have opinions but last night the team selection went up on twitter and out come people criticising -and we've not kicked a ball. 

I daren't go near posts by the club on there really, other than to check out lineups and other #content. I don't bother with the reply guys now for this reason.

Edited February 29 by StAndrew7

[Wellin]

3 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I would tend to agree with both you and Wellin here; I think Kettlewell has been on the receiving end of a consistent period of abuse/vitriol from various sections of the fan base (and I include myself in that) over the course of the season. The difference with Hammell was it was in a short, and very sharp period that it escalated almost unanimously within the support. There have been rumblings about Kettlewell throughout the season, but perhaps not to the same degree.

 

I daren't go near posts by the club on there really, other than to check out lineups and other #content. I don't bother with the reply guys now for this reason.

I agree. It's miserable on Twitter and I've been on twitter long enough to know how it goes but for the last few months all I've seen is a lot of shouting. Shouting for Kettlewell to go. SOD taking a lot of criticism. Like when the team went up last night some fans were unhappy with Gent being benched - but apparently he took a knock at the weekend. 

Of course folk have the right to call it as they see it but when we are in such a poor run I don't think it helps. Folk sitting constantly shouting at Kettlewell to get out of the club. I've not seen it this bad since on the run up to Alexander leaving. Of course it's to do with the lack of wins and frustration about certain signings - I just think it's got out of proportion at points. 

[santheman]

58 minutes ago, Wellin said:

The stuff I've seen on Facebook and twitter in9 particular re Kettlewell has just been way over the top in my view and it's been going on for months. I honestly look at some peoples tweets and wonder why they support the club. Btw I'm not trying to suggest that fans can't have opinions but last night the team selection went up on twitter and out come people criticising -and we've not kicked a ball. 

I really dont understand the mentality of these people who only criticise and never post anything positive.

I've tried to engage with them at times in the past but it gets a bit tiresome when you're continually called a happy clapper so I just avoid it all now and keep to this bastion of sensibility with the occasional foray into SO when I get the urge to self flagellate (although it is getting better with some new members)

 

 

Edited February 29 by santheman

[capt_oats]

37 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I think there was a point where it became clear there was a unanimous feeling amongst the support that Hammell had to go, which I think may have made it seem like the toxicity was more prevalent.

I would tend to agree with both you and Wellin here; I think Kettlewell has been on the receiving end of a consistent period of abuse/vitriol from various sections of the fan base (and I include myself in that) over the course of the season. The difference with Hammell was it was in a short, and very sharp period that it escalated. There have been rumblings about Kettlewell throughout the season, but perhaps not to the same degree.

I daren't go near posts by the club on there really, other than to check out lineups and other #content. I don't bother with the reply guys now for this reason.

Aye, I think both things can be and maybe are true.

For me the toxicity around the Hammell era seemed to be far more directed at the players rather than Hammell himself which is understandable given who he is and all that but it also largely ignored that he might simply have been someone who was miles out his depth in the role.

Whereas with Kettlewell, as @Swello says, there's probably been far more patience shown but I’d say it feels like the discontent and scepticism has been low key but consistent from certain sections without ever necessarily escalating to a point it did on either Hammell and certainly Alexander's watch.

Edited February 29 by capt_oats

[eliphas]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

@eliphas Above is Motherwell's points per game over the season as a whole. Not only has the decline been arrested which lasted from September until December, but it has been turned round and is heading the other way from December until now rising from 0.84 to 1.04. Results have improved undoubtedly and it's not a surprise there is a softening of the views around Stuart Kettlewell. The relationship is an inverse fit.

It's obvious that results are the main driver of opinions on these forums, people get emotional and vent etc. I agree, you won't convince me, but I'll leave it there today - you can have the last word if you want.   

Ok doke.