Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[well fan for life]

For all he gets a lot of stick I thought SOD was class last night. A few really brilliant crosses into the box and he had one defensive header in the second half that was outstanding. He's not got the legs he had a few years ago but he's still a solid player. 

[thisGRAEME]

20 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I think you're right; I do like Davor as a sitting ball winner, but he needs someone around him/in front of him to play forward passes like you said.

It's funny like, because when I had a look at him on Wyscout when he signed, he certainly looked like he had that kind of ability in his locker to ping passes around, but we've barely seen it. May be instruction or may be he had more time on the ball before. 

I like him a lot though, pler.

2 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

For all he gets a lot of stick I thought SOD was class last night. A few really brilliant crosses into the box and he had one defensive header in the second half that was outstanding. He's not got the legs he had a few years ago but he's still a solid player. 

Agreed. As much stick as he gets, the physicality he has and Devine so far doesn't, gives us a variety around what we can do with the wing-back position, and given how critical they are to us, that's important.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

1 hour ago, Dosser1886 said:

Maybe some of us expect watching football to be enjoyable/entertaining, and not expect the same issues to be seen all season and not resolved.

Enjoyable and entertaining football, are you sure you support the right club? 

I think you are being very harsh in saying that issues haven't been resolved. Sure, we are still conceding lots of soft goals, but looking at the bigger picture - how can you say that issues haven't been addressed when we went from a spell of losing 6 games out of 7, to losing 5 in 17 since? Only one of which wasn't to a team in the top three.

The recent games against Hearts and Celtic is the first time we've been beaten back to back since.

Edited February 29 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[MurrayWell]

35 minutes ago, Dosser1886 said:

Maybe some of us expect watching football to be enjoyable/entertaining, and not expect the same issues to be seen all season and not resolved.

We've for sure had issues at the back this season, but anyone saying we're not enjoyable/entertaining when we get going in attack must not be watching the same team.

Most goals scored of any team outside the Old Firm/There is no Old Firm. Some absolutely cracking team and individual goals, with a spread across the team. 

We've obviously not been consistent, and have been frustrating during certain runs, but we are great fun to watch at times. 

[casinobay]

Any word on Halliday's injury? Is it long term?

Would be good to have him back for the Sevco match.

Edited February 29 by casinobay

[fat_tony]

20 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Agreed. As much stick as he gets, the physicality he has and Devine so far doesn't, gives us a variety around what we can do with the wing-back position, and given how critical they are to us, that's important.

 

I'm going to stick my head out the trench here and say that I don't think SOD is anywhere near as bad as he's made out to be. He's a bit slow and can switch off defensively but he picks up good positions going forward and usually plays pretty intelligent passes.

Big fan of wee Davor as well. Like others have said he tends not to drive us forward but he and Miller link up nicely and give us a lot of composure in the middle which we really needed.

[Swello]

I think the pass that Miller pinged over to O'Donnell in the first half should be straight into the showreel

 

[StAndrew7]

54 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

It's funny like, because when I had a look at him on Wyscout when he signed, he certainly looked like he had that kind of ability in his locker to ping passes around, but we've barely seen it. May be instruction or may be he had more time on the ball before. 

I like him a lot though, pler.

Agreed; I think he'll grow into that role and I guess the role he's in is one we needed to fill without a recognised defensive midfielder in the squad with Cornelius gone. He took his time to get into the first team, so I think it's fair to say he might need some time to develop into that long passing pivot type. Definitely excited about the wee man and how he can be developed, though.

Clearly loves his fitba and loves being here. I think him and Bair being besties from how he reacts to him scoring etc. is absolute class.  That kind of enthusiasm and character is what we've been missing for a fair bit of the season. Love to see it from him. Heart and soul into every game.

Edited February 29 by StAndrew7

[thisGRAEME]

Genuinely now viewing top six with absolute desperation so I can care about five more games then write off the season like I absolutely want to.

[Handsome_Devil]

Financially it'd be amazing to make the top six but given we won't have a prayer of fifth, it'd be much more enjoyable sporting-wise to to take seven points from the next five and chase seventh. The bottom six, when you're safe with a semi-entertaining team, is great.

[Busta Nut]

I admit, I am all over the place with Kettlewell. I think he should have been binned weeks ago. But was willing to let him see out the season when we thought he was contracted to the summer. Then I was annoyed there was a sneaky contract and the first half last night was god awful. I'd have sacked him there. 
The win soothed things and in the clear light of day, I know we aren't going to sack him anyway so I am back to wishing him well. Very much on the fence though.

 

There is some amount of gymnastics taking place here though to put a good spin on the 2 wins out of 20 odd whatever it was. even now 3 in whatever. It's a stinking record regardless. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

19 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Financially it'd be amazing to make the top six but given we won't have a prayer of fifth, it'd be much more enjoyable sporting-wise to to take seven points from the next five and chase seventh. The bottom six, when you're safe with a semi-entertaining team, is great.

Agreed. I actually really enjoyed the post-split fixtures last season, watching us play well under no pressure.

[thisGRAEME]

6 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

There is some amount of gymnastics taking place here though to put a good spin on the 2 wins out of 20 odd whatever it was. even now 3 in whatever. It's a stinking record regardless. 

I do this, and I'm aware I do this, but ultimately; we're kind of exactly where we're meant to be?

We're actually alright to watch. We score fucking class goals regularly. We're an absolute shit show defensively. There's a bunch of really likeable players in the squad. Ups and downs.

I think I said this on Monday's pod but the infuriating thing about us is that there's just enough about us to keep you coming back with just a wee bit of enthusiasm, which is inevitably misguided, and I think that's why so many people are so fucked off at this season.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

6 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

There is some amount of gymnastics taking place here though to put a good spin on the 2 wins out of 20 odd whatever it was. even now 3 in whatever. It's a stinking record regardless. 

Obviously 3 wins in 25 looks bad written down.

But in our lowest ebb this season, we picked up 1 point in 7 games. In the seven games we followed that we picked up 5 points. In the seven games which followed that we picked up 10 points.

Regardless of what we think about the number of games won, that is form on an upward trajectory and we would be cutting our noses off to spite our faces.

Since that run of 1 point in 7 games, we have accrued 18 points in 17 games, which lets be honest, for where we are in the world at this moment, is decent enough.

If you want to spin it further, since we managed to get that illusive victory, we've accrued 13 points in 9 games, which again is good. The only blots in those 9 games are a defeat to Celtic and a defeat to Hearts at Tynecastle, which lets be honest, those were the pools forecast scores that day anyway.

Do you want Kettlewell to rot on mistakes / bad results from the Autumn now? I think there must be a cut off where results in October stop becoming relevant to trot out the "X wins in Y" line.

This line of thinking reminds me of when Scotland sacked Gordon Strachan for Alex McLeish on the back of four wins and two draws in his last six games, for drawing against Lithuania a year previously.

[Busta Nut]

6 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I do this, and I'm aware I do this, but ultimately; we're kind of exactly where we're meant to be?

We're actually alright to watch. We score fucking class goals regularly. We're an absolute shit show defensively. There's a bunch of really likeable players in the squad. Ups and downs.

I think I said this on Monday's pod but the infuriating thing about us is that there's just enough about us to keep you coming back with just a wee bit of enthusiasm, which is inevitably misguided, and I think that's why so many people are so fucked off at this season.

Yep I get that. The issues is some of the lows have been Mariana Trench low.

[Eliphas Pettigrew]

Great to see Theo creeping into the top assists charts to accompany Spittal & Biereth 

[eliphas]

4 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Proven wrong until results start to wrong again basically then at which point you'll be right again?

Wouldn't it be easier just to take a longer view. Fan's can be so short sighted, I get that it's an emotional game, but f**k me. It just goes to show that for fans the only thing is results.

No not at all. 

We've improved in all those areas I outlined since I wanted him gone. So fair fucks to the manager for that.

There was obvious things he wasn't doing that could improve the team. If he hadn't and kept to the things he was doing, not recruited well, then my position would be the same. 

It's ok to change a position on something/someone if you see change id suggest. 

[2426255]

32 minutes ago, eliphas said:

No not at all. 

We've improved in all those areas I outlined since I wanted him gone. So fair fucks to the manager for that.

There was obvious things he wasn't doing that could improve the team. If he hadn't and kept to the things he was doing, not recruited well, then my position would be the same. 

It's ok to change a position on something/someone if you see change id suggest. 

There's an observable and direct relationship between changes of opinion and short term results. That's more the issue for me. The binary world of results are what's driving changes of opinions. That's where the winless run stat gripped the Motherwell faithful and why the forum is more upbeat and relaxed today - it's what it's all about. I saw the exact same with Steve Clarke after Euro-2020.

If Kettlewell had made the changes you had wanted and recruited well on paper, but hadn't got results then would you have still wanted him in post? I suppose if the results weren't good then by default the recruitment isn't good. Isn't that how a fans mind works?

I've seen people say it's okay to change your opinion and I agree with you, but what value does it hold if you change it, then change it back and repeatedly flip-flop. The only thing that it would say to me is you need to view it over a longer period of time and that if Motherwell lose the next 2 or 3 games it'll change again.     

We know that managers are accountable for results, but we also know they aren't always the driver of those results. If you can look past just the results, factor in and accept the mitigating circumstances hampering the team then you know you'll come through it when conditions improve and for me with Steve Clarke at Scotland that was my interpretation back in 2021 and it's basically the same with Kettlewell at Motherwell just now. 

Edited February 29 by 2426255

[eliphas]

24 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

There's an observable and direct relationship between changes of opinion and short term results. That's more the issue for me. The binary world of results are what's driving changes of opinions. That's where the winless run stat gripped the Motherwell faithful and why the board is more upbeat and relaxed today - it's what it's all about. I saw the exact same with Steve Clarke after Euro-2020.

If Kettlewell had made the changes you had wanted and recruited well on paper, but hadn't got results then would you have still wanted him in post? I suppose if the results weren't good then by default the recruitment isn't good. Isn't that how a fans mind works?

I've seen people say it's okay to change your opinion and I agree with you, but what value does it hold if you change it, then change it back and repeatedly flip-flop. The only thing that it would say to me is you need to view it over a longer period of time and that if Motherwell lose the next 2 or 3 games doubts will creep back in.     

I mean I don't think I'm going to convince you, which is fine. 

I'd argue my position isn't particularly results based. They contribute of course. But I'd also argue the results have continued to be shit since the Ross County game loss where a lot of us had had enough - I mean we've one twice in the league since then with a good number of the draws propwr get out of jail efforts. Bit of stretch to say anyone is changing their mind because of results. 

Watching us every week (most of the time) Vs every week pre Ross County drubbing is night and day. It's the little green shoots of improvement that I outlined that have changed my mind on Kettlewell as it shows, to me, he can change for the better. 

Edited February 29 by eliphas

[Handsome_Devil]

48 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

There is some amount of gymnastics taking place here though to put a good spin on the 2 wins out of 20 odd whatever it was. even now 3 in whatever. It's a stinking record regardless. 

That's obviously stinking but ultimately it's a totally arbitrary number to base the judgement on. It's worth no more than cherry-picking the recent record and saying we barely lose outwith the OF aren't we great.

What I think it does definitely highlight though is the fact we are, in principle, desperate not to sack anyone until we have no choice. Which is based less on results but more attitude of the squad.

Hammell survived till the players chucked it, so did Alexander basically, downing tools and a dressing room barny at Morton did for Baraclough, Robinson and McCall volunteered to go (having previously been talked out of it) and in between McGhee went due to the 7-2/1-5 losses (which pre-MFCTV I didn't see but you need to imagine there was some withdrawal of labour to explain those).

Over many years, we generally much say that so long as the players are on board, the devil we know is better than an expensive gamble that may not work out. Which when you look around elsewhere, is pretty hard to argue with.