Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Vietnam91]

4 hours ago, capt_oats said:

It's probably an unanswerable question and I'm not sure that it really needs asked but it's been rattling around my brain so I'll ask it anyway: Does Harry Paton score our equaliser last night, (like does he even make that run to get in that position?) and do we get that second half performance in general if he's on the park instead of Nicholson?

That's not meant as a dig at Paton or anything (honest) and it's also shite that he's out injured but I've mentioned before that Nicholson feels like a more obvious fit for that role and it kind of felt that way watching how things panned out.

Each passing week I'm more and more inclined to think Nicholson was a bit of early succession planning for a Spittal replacement for season 24/25.

I'm not down on Paton as many. He's industrious and mostly tries to move the ball positively rather than sideways or back. That has a higher completion failure rate and probably influences some opinions.

With respect to our defence I'd welcome SK just starting the whole thing from scratch come June. It's been our Achilles heel and a root and stock rebuild I'd be happy with, only McGinn has a golden ticket for me. I'm sure the gaffer will also welcome some "top earner" money in the pot.

I've never felt SOD has played as for us as Kilmarnock, in his defence he was never employed as a wingback till a year ago. He's a likeable guy and a good statesman and diplomat for the club but that seems to hold no sway with Kettlewell's axe.

With Slattery out long term it will be interesting to see if we repeat our previous doing right by them and offering an extension. 

[Gianfranco]

I didn’t know Jack Vale was Welsh never mind who is uncle is.

[Wellin]

25 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

Each passing week I'm more and more inclined to think Nicholson was a bit of early succession planning for a Spittal replacement for season 24/25.

I'm not down on Paton as many. He's industrious and mostly tries to move the ball positively rather than sideways or back. That has a higher completion failure rate and probably influences some opinions.

With respect to our defence I'd welcome SK just starting the whole thing from scratch come June. It's been our Achilles heel and a root and stock rebuild I'd be happy with, only McGinn has a golden ticket for me. I'm sure the gaffer will also welcome some "top earner" money in the pot.

I've never felt SOD has played as for us as Kilmarnock, in his defence he was never employed as a wingback till a year ago. He's a likeable guy and a good statesman and diplomat for the club but that seems to hold no sway with Kettlewell's axe.

With Slattery out long term it will be interesting to see if we repeat our previous doing right by them and offering an extension. 

I personally think Kettlewell likes SOD. It was Alexander who dropped him. Possibly deserved as his form dipped but I think he gets too much of a hard time 

I'd like to see Slattery offered new terms. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Bevis seems a lovely big chap and he puts his heart in soul into it. For me, he's too clumsy around the box and not good enough on the ball to be first choice. When this is the line of chat when he's had a good run of games, he's normally not far from a moment to bring us back down to earth.

Blaney is a weird one. He's played enough games and I've seen enough of him to judge him by now, but I still feel like I've got no idea if he's any good or not.

[Vietnam91]

22 minutes ago, Wellin said:

I personally think Kettlewell likes SOD. It was Alexander who dropped him. Possibly deserved as his form dipped but I think he gets too much of a hard time 

I'd like to see Slattery offered new terms. 

I understand it was because he stood up to Alexander and refused to act on and deliver instructions he thought were wild.

[capt_oats]

10 minutes ago, Wellin said:

I personally think Kettlewell likes SOD. It was Alexander who dropped him. Possibly deserved as his form dipped but I think he gets too much of a hard time 

I'd like to see Slattery offered new terms. 

Not to be contrary as it's well documented there was a fall out and he was bumped as captain along with the fact that the whole signing Paul McGinn thing was essentially because O'Donnell was heading out the door as a result but SODs actually played the most minutes of any outfield player in Alexander's full season in charge.

As @Vietnam91 says it seems to have been more about a personality thing.

What I would say is that I think of the 4 managers SOD has had while he's been at the club (Robinson, Alexander, Hammell and Kettlewell) Ketts is the only one who actually seems to have had a clue what to do with him.

[Handsome_Devil]

7 hours ago, Wellin said:

I personally think Kettlewell likes SOD. It was Alexander who dropped him. Possibly deserved as his form dipped but I think he gets too much of a hard time 

I'd like to see Slattery offered new terms. 

I think so too...he showed when he came in the wasn't afraid to exile folk but while SOD understandably lost out to Johnston, he came off the bench for weeks.

I'd also be offering Slattery another couple of years...it'd surely be hard for him to sign elsewhere before fully recovered.

[Antiochas III]

8 hours ago, Wellin said:

It's more than occasional in my view. It baffles me how SOD gets the criticism when Bevis is a bomb scare. I think he's a great guy but he's been a loose cannon too many times in my view 

You don't think Mugabi gets criticsm?  For being by far our best central defender he is probably our most criticised player.  At start of season all we got was Butcher has to hurry back... 

 

Until we find someone to play central in a 3 then Mugabi has to stay - as none of our other defenders are close to being as good as Mugabi (unless there is a youth waiting in the wing) 

Edited March 1 by Antiochas III

[StAndrew7]

9 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Blaney is a weird one. He's played enough games and I've seen enough of him to judge him by now, but I still feel like I've got no idea if he's any good or not.

I do like Blaney as a LCB in a three; he's absolutely not a LWB though.

He's not really put a long run of starting games together that I can remember. He always seemed relatively assured enough and composed when he did though. I think his last start was what, Livi at home in December? Difficult to judge when he's been picking up niggles here and there and maybe hasn't been able to.

He's signed through next season along with Casey isn't he?

Edited March 1 by StAndrew7

[eliphas]

10 hours ago, Vietnam91 said:

With respect to our defence I'd welcome SK just starting the whole thing from scratch come June. It's been our Achilles heel and a root and stock rebuild I'd be happy with, only McGinn has a golden ticket for me. I'm sure the gaffer will also welcome some "top earner" money in the pot.

That's it for me too basically.

It's kind of odd in that when you take each defender in isolation they do have their plus points - so it's more about their negatives and how big and bad they are + how they are as a unit (Spoiler on the latter : Bad)

I'd keep McGinn as he's versatile and consistent, and I think Casey and Blaney too as they are under contract til 25 and I do think playing beneath their potential. 

Butcher is done, sadly I think, at this level and I was one calling for his return to the middle. That's another thing I've changed my mind on. Sorry in advance about that. Haha.

SOD just isn't good enough in general enough nowadays and McGinn is a better version of him for me. 

Mugabi's negatives outweigh his positives imo. He's clumsy, lacks positional awarenesses, makes absolute howlers, often can't kick the ball where he wants it and takes so long to get up to speed every season.  I do agree with you @Antiochas III in that currently he's probably our best bet at central defence til we find someone else but I wouldn't keep him for that reason.

For what it's worth I could see Kettlewell re-signing Mugabi, SOD and McGinn. Letting Butcher go and mutualling Blaney back to Ireland (mainly due to being injury prone) while he looks for two first choice centre halfs and a few wingbacks 

Edited March 1 by eliphas

[thisGRAEME]

11 hours ago, CoF said:

Anyone got stats on how Mugabi's headers won / aerial duels / whatever compares to the rest of the defenders in the league? I know he's caught out positionally now and then but when he does go for the ball he almost always wins it. There's periods in games where it's just Mugabi heading the ball away and it's great. 

Mugabi has had the 18th most Aerial Duels in the league, only surpassed by Theo at Motherwell, with a 65% success rate. He is surpassed on "success rate" by Miller, Blaney and Spencer, but then they've played less minutes.

His 65% success rate places him 14th in the league, but then there's a whole bunch ahead of him with only a handful of games. If you make it players of similar minutes he's top 5-ish.

Also very successful within his own penalty area, with a 63% success rate, making him a top 5 centre back in the league for that. So yeah, basically that. He is very good in the air. 

He's also top 10 for blocked shots and top 5 for interceptions.

So yeah, RandomGuy can probably explain all that better and the value of these things, but broadly: I'd keep Mugabi, I think he's absolutely fine for us. A whole bunch of people have made up their mind and will go out of their way to blame him (See Hibs away which ended up "Mugabi's fault" despite Gent fucking it and Bair failing to stop the shot.) despite the failings of the players around him.

He does make mistakes and I don't have stats for this, but there's no chance that he's been more culpable than Casey this season, who seems to escape that level of criticism.

[capt_oats]

With the sheer number of players out of contract this summer I can 100% see a situation where we offer new deals to all our expiring centre backs.

Whether they actually take us up on those offers is a different question but we've been talking on here about how we've missed having that consistent core in the group since the likes of Lasley, Hammell, Hartley, Tait etc left and keeping some of the 'experienced' heads around would go some way to helping create a culture at the club.

From that POV 'Normal' Paul McGinn feels like an entirely sensible guy to have around the place.

I don't know if it was just a line to the media or whether he actually meant it but SOD was on record as saying that he's happy to be here as long as the manager wants him. I've said it before but the criticism that gets launched his way reminds me a lot of McManus in that, for whatever reason (take your pick), SOD seems to be judged differently.

It's weird but what can you do.

As far as Bevis goes, I think it was @thisGRAEME who made the point that he's someone who needs a run of games to play himself into form. He's not someone who you can just drop in and expect to not make mistakes. The obvious issue for us is that he's probably someone whose levels mean we'd ideally see him in a squad role.

Again though he's played 119 games for us so far in his Motherwell career and is one of our most used players I don't see us just kicking him to the curb.

Fwiw, here's the squad by minutes played this season (most to least):

Edited March 1 by capt_oats

[Desp]

11 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Mugabi has had the 18th most Aerial Duels in the league, only surpassed by Theo at Motherwell, with a 65% success rate. He is surpassed on "success rate" by Miller, Blaney and Spencer, but then they've played less minutes.

His 65% success rate places him 14th in the league, but then there's a whole bunch ahead of him with only a handful of games. If you make it players of similar minutes he's top 5-ish.

Also very successful within his own penalty area, with a 63% success rate, making him a top 5 centre back in the league for that. So yeah, basically that. He is very good in the air. 

He's also top 10 for blocked shots and top 5 for interceptions.

[thisGRAEME]

5 minutes ago, Desp said:

Yes yes I know I know.

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, eliphas said:

For what it's worth I could see Kettlewell re-signing Mugabi, SOD and McGinn. Letting Butcher go and mutualling Blaney back to Ireland (mainly due to being injury prone) while he looks for two first choice centre halfs and a few wingbacks 

I'd probably take that deal if possible tbh, my thoughts so far had only been on those ooc. Because as much as you can make a case for most individually, renewing all of them and having basically the same unit that's a disaster isn't viable.

17 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

He does make mistakes and I don't have stats for this, but there's no chance that he's been more culpable than Casey this season, who seems to escape that level of criticism.

That's one of these comments that makes me wonder if I'm reading the same forum... has there not been near universal consensus Casey has been shite this season?

I think the debate around the four is obviously just more intense because when ooc they're the easier parts to change. If Mugabi has to go despite being better than Blaney (definitely) and Casey (if only on form) to make space for the upgrade we all agree we need because he can be moved on and the others can't, that's just the harsh reality of things on our budget.

[thisGRAEME]

4 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

That's one of these comments that makes me wonder if I'm reading the same forum... has there not been near universal consensus Casey has been shite this season?

I'd say more at games than here, tbf.

[Busta Nut]

I have to admit it. I like Bevis. I know he has madness in him. Still, I'd keep him.

His instructions need to be simple. Stay goalside. Go win the baw. If in doubt etc.

[eliphas]

It's not an easy decision at all the centre backs. Which is odd considering how murder they've all been together for most of the season.

13 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Because as much as you can make a case for most individually, renewing all of them and having basically the same unit that's a disaster isn't viable.

That's the absolute key Kettlewell has to figure out. It might mean one or two go who maybe we'd rather keep but if it makes the collective better then such is football. 

How Kettlewell does all that and makes sure he doesn't end up with worse...I'm glad it's not me.

[Swello]

Casey, who I loved last season is looking like it was a purple patch as he has been abysmal this season, post injury Butcher looks done at this level unfortunately and Blaney looks like a championship level player. I'd be keeping Mugabi and McGinn from our current centre halfs - and I liked SODs in there recently too - so I would be keeping him on as he can play 2 (3 at a stretch) positions.

The risk would be keeping the same defence overall and expecting it go differently - something has to change for the better.

 

[Handsome_Devil]

6 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I'd say more at games than here, tbf.

Ah fair enough then.

For whatever reason there's an aura about some players that definitely impacts the perception of them and how the crowd reacts. Even when he was playing well last season, Butcher was good for one howling error in most games - but it came out the blue and when he's otherwise solid it's easy to give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he made a largely winning start.

Bevis on the other hand might make the same one howler a game but everyone goes to the guy next to them 'that's been coming'. Whether it's confidence , technique (lack of, in both cases), I've no idea but it's definitely something. A slow start and being pitched in to the collapse of the Robinson reign obviously didn't help first impressions either.