Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

If ever there was a season for a bit of leeway in terms of inconsistent performances then this is it. It's not a normal season and it's still kind of weird to me that there are fans (in general) who seem to think it is.

I've said before that my expectations for the season were pretty modest; if we're looking at 21/22 and are a) still a Premiership club and b) still a going concern, then great. Job done.

That's not to say I don't have thoughts but equally players (literally) hadn't kicked a ball in nearly 6 months, we had no proper pre-season to speak of, budgets have been reduced and on top of that we've seen injuries of varying degrees to; Carson, Carroll, Cole, Donnelly, Dunne, Fox, McGinley, Mugabi plus Campbell and Maguire having to self-isolate - @Dons_1988 is speaking to the dip in Aberdeen's form over on their thread in that context with a pile of injuries and McCrorie picking up a dose of the Covid, I don't think we're much different. Our season has been punctuated by injuries and shuffling players around.

Another thing that hadn't really occurred to me until Robinson mentioned it in his press conference is the extent to which we're limited in actually playing football.

There are no reserve games so we've bounced a lot of the Young Team out on loan to develop - that's fine but even with increased subs it means that the fringe guys at the club are barely playing any minutes so even factoring in their erm...limitations guys like Seedorf, Lamie, Hastie et al aren't going to be anywhere near match fit when they're getting chucked on - is it really much of a surprise they're not making a positive impact on games?

We don't have a winter break this season which is something that's worked well for us as a re-set. Even if Robinson has identified where we need to improve (hopefully he has) and identified players to rectify our deficiencies (again, hopefully he has) presumably we won't be heading off to Tenerife to bed in any new signings come January.

All in all it really is just a case of powering through to the end of the season and It's natural for there to be a disconnect because of that.

Edited December 6, 2020 by capt_oats

[Dons_1988]

Thanks for the mention but my thoughts on our dip in form are certainly not universally popular.

[ropy]

On a slightly different topic I was thinking about the transformational money we were due to get for Turnbull in 2019.  Then we didn’t.  Then we got it in 2020 and it will probably keep our club afloat in these strange times.  As a result have we missed out on our transformational injection?

I am happy that I will still have a club to support but we are likely missing out on an opportunity that may not arise again.

[welldaft]

 

9 minutes ago, ropy said:

On a slightly different topic I was thinking about the transformational money we were due to get for Turnbull in 2019.  Then we didn’t.  Then we got it in 2020 and it will probably keep our club afloat in these strange times.  As a result have we missed out on our transformational injection?

I am happy that I will still have a club to support but we are likely missing out on an opportunity that may not arise again.

There is a very recent podcast with Alan Burrows on Sports Geek. An Aussie sports podcast.  Listened to it earlier in the week. Well worth the hour or so. Burrows talks about the transfer money from Turnbull. Essentially says it was earmarked for capital projects.

Referenced parts of the ground being ancient and needing attention. But thanks to Covid they will need to scale back and stop any such projects until we come through the other side of Covid. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by welldaft

[capt_oats]

15 minutes ago, ropy said:

On a slightly different topic I was thinking about the transformational money we were due to get for Turnbull in 2019.  Then we didn’t.  Then we got it in 2020 and it will probably keep our club afloat in these strange times.  As a result have we missed out on our transformational injection?

I am happy that I will still have a club to support but we are likely missing out on an opportunity that may not arise again.

It's difficult to say. Are we not due to get the accounts delivered soon and the AGM? My set of accounts arrived via email on the 5th December last year.

I suppose it depends on the impact the Covid has had which I'd imagine would be quite a fluid thing. Best, Worst, Expected case scenarios and all that.

Jim McMahon's statement at the end of August was such:

Quote

The money we receive for David will allow us in part to build up the strategic reserve, which helps secure and sustain us through such difficult and uncertain times. But this is also an opportunity to invest in the infrastructure, for example our training ground, academy and other facilities, with a view to providing an even-better environment for player development.

Link

Robinson was saying:

Quote

“We got a huge fee for David, which is fantastic for the club, and we are into another round in Europe, so now we need to build on that.

“I’m not expecting any more in my budget. What I want is the infrastructure of the football club, I want the training ground sorted out.

“I think the club will back that completely because we do develop players. Having a better environment to do that has to be the goal.”

“The board run this football club prudently and they are very, very good at what they do. Jim McMahon is an excellent chairman and he will make sure the club is right first and foremost. No money will be blown.

“What you have to do is put the infrastructure in place for the future, keep trying to defy the odds and finish higher up the league when you’re losing payers every year. That’s what we will try to do.”

Link

Have things changed much since then in the last 3-4 months terms of projections/impact?

Edit: @welldaft has answered that in the post above.

Edited December 6, 2020 by capt_oats

[ZX1886]

On a slightly different topic I was thinking about the transformational money we were due to get for Turnbull in 2019.  Then we didn’t.  Then we got it in 2020 and it will probably keep our club afloat in these strange times.  As a result have we missed out on our transformational injection?
I am happy that I will still have a club to support but we are likely missing out on an opportunity that may not arise again.

That and the James Scott money will definitely be crucial the longer we go with no gate income. Could also throw in the £395,000 we got for finishing 3rd in the league.

The Turnbull money was supposedly being injected into the youth system but I think you might be right that it’ll probably be used to cover costs elsewhere during our current uncertainty. Not a lot that the club can do about it unfortunately.

[ropy]

31 minutes ago, welldaft said:

 

There is a very recent podcast with Alan Burrows on Sports Geek. An Aussie sports podcast.  Listened to it earlier in the week. Well worth the hour or so. Burrows talks about the transfer money from Turnbull. Essentially says it was earmarked for capital projects.

Referenced parts of the ground being ancient and needing attention. But thanks to Covid they will need to scale back and stop any such projects until we come through the other side of Covid. 

Just tracked it down, will give it a listen 

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, welldaft said:

There is a very recent podcast with Alan Burrows on Sports Geek. An Aussie sports podcast.  Listened to it earlier in the week. Well worth the hour or so. Burrows talks about the transfer money from Turnbull. Essentially says it was earmarked for capital projects.

Referenced parts of the ground being ancient and needing attention. But thanks to Covid they will need to scale back and stop any such projects until we come through the other side of Covid. 

Cheers. Giving this a listen now.

A lot of what he's saying there is quite familiar from the other pods he's done but it's the first one I've heard him do since the 'rona stuff happened and the associated challenges it's brought.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by capt_oats

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Not the best performance at all yesterday. 

I’m really not sure that I rate Lang. He’s not particularly quick, he’s not tricky, doesn’t seem to have many shots or crosses into the box. I’m just actually not sure what his role is?

Add to that White, Seedorf, Hastie and Long have been ineffectual and the jury is still out on Cole to an extent. I think Watt has been decent and I like him, but I don’t think he can carry the burden of being the only forward coming close to performing.

If I think back to any other season where we’ve struggled, our top league goalscorer on December 6th has always been a bit better than someone on 3 goals, 2 of which are penalties.

I don’t believe we’ll be in a relegation fight, but mainly thanks to Hamilton, St. Mirren and Ross County all being worse than us and those nice six points we got last week. This has hints of the 18/19 season, where we ripped it up in January and went for the plan C of total football once Plan B of McCormack failed. 
 

I hope we have room for manoeuvre in terms of incomings and outgoings in January. We just have a big group of bang average players. 
 

The thing that does concern me is that under Robinson, there’s been so many players who have left us which I’ve agreed with their departure, but we haven’t replaced with better options since.

Did I think Tait and Hartley’s best days were behind them last season? Yes. Would I have played them both regularly over the options we do have this season? Also yes.

Was I sad to see either Frear or Cadden go? No. Have we signed a better winger since? Also, arguably no.

On the group chat I have on WhatsApp with ‘Well fans, we were going through Robinson’s signings on Saturday night and there is some amount of sub-standard players in there. Is that just the nature of the beast? Do all other clubs around our size’s fans feel the same? Or are we actually quite bad at recruitment?

 

[RandomGuy.]

Started a ranking for goalkeepers now.

On paper, Carson this season is a massive downgrade on Gillespie last season. Carson conceded almost exactly 1 shot less between goals than the league average over the past 2 seasons.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

The thing that does concern me is that under Robinson, there’s been so many players who have left us which I’ve agreed with their departure, but we haven’t replaced with better options since.

Did I think Tait and Hartley’s best days were behind them last season? Yes. Would I have played them both regularly over the options we do have this season? Also yes.

Was I sad to see either Frear or Cadden go? No. Have we signed a better winger since? Also, arguably no.

On the group chat I have on WhatsApp with ‘Well fans, we were going through Robinson’s signings on Saturday night and there is some amount of sub-standard players in there. Is that just the nature of the beast? Do all other clubs around our size’s fans feel the same? Or are we actually quite bad at recruitment?

I'll take a stab at this and say that it's more nuanced than a simple good/bad question.

For me you're looking at it and asking why were they signed? Were they signed for the first team? Or were they simply brought in as squad filler or a punt who might come good?

I think an element of it is just the nature of the beast. Every 2nd year we seem to have a large turnover of players so you see an intake of players on 1 or 2 year deals who ultimately might come good but there's a fair chance they won't.

A friendly reminder that Christian Ilic currently has 15 appearances for Lokomotiv Plovdiv sitting 2nd in the Bulgarian top tier and was playing in their Europa League tie against Spurs earlier this season (maybe we shouldn't have spent a season trying to make him a right winger). ATS seems to be getting on fine at Livi.

Here's Robinson's signings to date (it's a long list - I've ommitted guys like Broque Watson and Neil McLaughlin we were Craigan signings for the Reserves, it'd debatable whether Harry Robinson should be in there either but he made a couple of first team appearances so let's keep him in):

17/18
Alex Fisher, Gael Bigirimana, Craig Tanner, Trevor Carson, Andy Rose, Russell Griffiths, Charles Dunne, Cedric Kipre, George Newell, Ellis Plummer, Rohan Ferguson, Deimantas Petravičius, Liam Grimshaw, Gennadios Xenodochof, Curtis Main, Peter Hartley (loan)/(permanent), Nadir Ciftci (loan), Tom Aldred (loan) x 2, Stephen Hendrie (loan)

Total = 19

18/19
Mark Gillespie, Liam Donnelly, Danny Johnson, Aaron Taylor-Sinclair, Alex Rodriguez-Gorrin, Christian Mbulu, Conor Sammon (loan), Ross McCormack (loan), Gboly Ariyibi (loan)

Total = 9

19/20
Declan Gallagher, Liam Polworth, Jake Carroll, Casper Sloth, Jermaine Hylton, Christopher Long, Sherwin Seedorf, Christian Ilic, Christy Manzinga, Ross MacIver, Bevis Mugabi, Tony Watt, Harry Robinson, Devante Cole (loan)/permanent, Mark O'Hara (loan/permanent), Mikael Ndjoli (loan), Rolando Aarons (loan) 

Total = 17

20/21
Ricki Lamie, Jordan White, Nathan McGinley, Scott Fox, Stephen O'Donnell, Aaron Chapman, Jordan Archer, Jake Hastie (loan), Callum Lang (loan), Robbie Crawford (loan)

Total = 10

So all in we've signed 55 different players over 3.5 seasons.

For me it's a case of when we've got them right they've generally been very right (far too many to say we're bad at recruitment): Carson, Rose, Kipré, Hartley, Aldred, Ciftci, Gillespie, Donnelly, Gorrin, Ariyibi, Gallagher, Polworth, Carroll, Watt, Cole, O'Donnell and Lang have all (IMO) been on a sliding scale of excellent to decent first team players that we've got our money's worth from.

Recency bias probably stops him from getting any credit but we got a more than decent turn out of Chris Long last season. Main would fall into that bracket too.

Beyond that you've got guys like McGinley and O'Hara who may still come good and Aarons whose time at the club was curtailed so you can't really judge either way.

Then you've got players like Chapman, Archer, Xenodchof and Crawford who are/were here entirely out of circumstance because of injuries to others. Going the other way you've got guys who were good signings whose Motherwell careers were cut short by injury eg: Tanner, Dunne, Plummer and Fox.

The major disappointments eg: Bigi, Sloth, McCormack, Hastie you can understand why we signed them.

The problem (IMO) is where you get to that tier of players who have been brought in as cover that we find ourselves having to lean on (as we have this season) or guys we've brought in as a punt who it turns out are nowhere near it. That's where it becomes an issue (again, IMO).

I'd say maybe 20 of the names on that list fall into that category to varying degrees - I'll not name them but they're pretty easy to guess.

I don't think there's anyone can reasonably argue that there's not been an amount of wastage but equally the number in each season has generally been roughly equal to the number out. The argument would be that we're perpetuating a lot of that churn ourselves I suppose.

I still have no answer for Conor Sammon though.

Edited December 7, 2020 by capt_oats

[ZX1886]

3 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I’m really not sure that I rate Lang. He’s not particularly quick, he’s not tricky, doesn’t seem to have many shots or crosses into the box. I’m just actually not sure what his role is?
Add to that White, Seedorf, Hastie and Long have been ineffectual and the jury is still out on Cole to an extent. I think Watt has been decent and I like him, but I don’t think he can carry the burden of being the only forward coming close to performing.
If I think back to any other season where we’ve struggled, our top league goalscorer on December 6th has always been a bit better than someone on 3 goals, 2 of which are penalties.

 

I think it’s clear the majority of our signings this season haven’t lived up to what’s expected of them, backup or not.

Hastie - From all the mates I talked to about it at the time, not one wanted Hastie back at the club. Having said that, there were a few of us (myself included) who grudgingly admitted he’d probably do a job for us but clearly that’s not been the case so the sooner he’s sent back to Glasgow the better.

White - A Championship striker who is yet to prove himself in the Premiership, was unlucky with a few disallowed goals in the first couple of games but since then he’s been sitting on the bench and at no point do I feel he will make a huge impact coming on.

Long - seemed a decent signing at the time but looks more interested in selling PS5s on Instagram than playing for us on a Saturday.

Lang - Not done anything spectacular but wouldn’t say he’s been terrible either. Played well a few times.

O’Donnell - Decent signing, especially since Accies were keeping him fit for us, just going to be another position we need to fill once he’s gone in January.

Crawford - Couldn’t get into Livi’s first team so wasn’t sure why we brought him in, even as a backup. Had a few average games in recent weeks for us, not terrible but weird signing.

Lamie - Don’t get me started.

Chapman - Thrown in at the deep end, not looked very convincing.

Archer - Made an excellent save but also conceded 3. Will need to see more of him.

McGinley - Been our with injury for a bit so can’t really say but looks more comfortable than Lamie in our defence.

Cole - I really started to like him near to the end of his previous loan spell, too early to call for me, hopefully he can turn decent in the coming weeks.

Watt - Happy with Watt getting a new deal, don’t think he’s established himself enough to be our sole striker but gives us an option up top nonetheless.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I don’t believe we’ll be in a relegation fight, but mainly thanks to Hamilton, St. Mirren and Ross County all being worse than us and those nice six points we got last week. This has hints of the 18/19 season, where we ripped it up in January and went for the plan C of total football once Plan B of McCormack failed.

 

Think that’s it. We’re not great but we’re also not as bad as some of the mobs at the bottom. Need to get into a decent run of form though just to put a bit of distance between us and them. Our upcoming fixtures (looking past St Mirren at home) aren’t exactly a pleasant view. Rangers (A), Aberdeen (H), Dundee United (A) and Kilmarnock (H) to see out 2020.

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by ZX1886

[thisGRAEME]

No chance have I just seen someone pining for Elliott Frear?

Surely not.

[well fan for life]

Elliot fucking Frear? Has someone been on the glue? Hamstrings made of cheese strings, feart of his own shadow and loves Tommy Robinson. Jeezo. 

What we seem to have amassed is a pile of decent attacking options but not one of them looks like they'd be bothering a top scorers chart any time soon. I like Watt & Lang and Cole definitely looked to be a good signing to have back in terms of having a pacey, physical threat. 

I can understand why we offered Tait a new deal. I can also understand why Tait opted for the mystery box which seems to have been a great success for him as he's guaranteed a start most weeks (when he hasn't kicked a Dundee United player half way to Caird Park). 

Hartley was finished. Like absolutely and utterly finished. On the wane for a while and then the 4-4 draw was the final straw. An absolute bombscare. 

 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

25 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

No chance have I just seen someone pining for Elliott Frear?

Surely not.

I think "pining" is twisting my words somewhat, just a tad hyperbolic.

I said that I thought his time was up when he left. I don't think Elliott Frear was good enough, as is reflected by him having to return to Forest Green, followed by warming Hearts bench in the Championship. My gripe is that I had aspirations of us perhaps replacing him with someone better and I'm lamenting the fact that things haven't got better there since he left. I don't think you could really say that any of Hylton, Seedorf, Ilic or Hastie have been a marked upgrade. In fairness, I do think Aarons looked like he was coming on to a game before his 'Well career was cut short a month in.

[well fan for life]

4 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think "pining" is twisting my words somewhat, just a tad hyperbolic.

I said that I thought his time was up when he left. I don't think Elliott Frear was good enough, as is reflected by him having to return to Forest Green, followed by warming Hearts bench in the Championship. My gripe is that I had aspirations of us perhaps replacing him with someone better and I'm lamenting the fact that things haven't got better there since he left. I don't think you could really say that any of Hylton, Seedorf, Ilic or Hastie have been a marked upgrade. In fairness, I do think Aarons looked like he was coming on to a game before his 'Well career was cut short a month in.

Hastie had that wild run when he came into the team and couldn't stop scoring. Then I think once teams worked out if you just chuck an extra man on him he's not got a clue what to do. Pretty convinced he's not beaten a man since about March 2019. 

I also seem to always forget Hylton went to County. Not that I'm arsed. Barely kicked a ball all season. 

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

What we seem to have amassed is a pile of decent attacking options but not one of them looks like they'd be bothering a top scorers chart any time soon. I like Watt & Lang and Cole definitely looked to be a good signing to have back in terms of having a pacey, physical threat. 

I can understand why we offered Tait a new deal. I can also understand why Tait opted for the mystery box which seems to have been a great success for him as he's guaranteed a start most weeks (when he hasn't kicked a Dundee United player half way to Caird Park). 

Hartley was finished. Like absolutely and utterly finished. On the wane for a while and then the 4-4 draw was the final straw. An absolute bombscare. 

The other thing about this summer specifically is the undeniable effect of the 'Rona.

From piecing together what we know we had pre-contracts in place with Lamie and White but also had offers on the table for Tait and Hartley - then the Covid happened, budgets were cut and presumably our plans went out the window. We've honoured our pre-contract offers and presumably altered the plans we had that weren't already agreed.

I think it's probably fair to say that Robinson's got a blind spot when it comes to goalscoring centre forwards. To devils advocate that - it's probably easier to recruit a striker who has other attributes to bring to a team than it is to sign a 15-20 goal a season guy on our budget so we've found ourselves focusing more on facilitators in that role.

I mean, that's fine when the goals are coming from elsewhere: Main chipped in during his half season while Tanner was contributing before his knee fell apart in 17/18, Turnbull pretty much matched Moult's league goals in 18/19 and we had Donnelly and Long both in double figures for the season in 19/20. The problems come when the goals aren't coming from elsewhere.

This season (taking out our 6 free goals) we're sitting on 15 goals from 14 games. Last season after the same number of games we'd scored 21, 15 in 18/19 and 21 in 17/18.

However when you look at the list of Fisher, Newell, Main, Ciftci, Johnson, Sammon, Long, Manzinga, Watt, Cole, Ndjoli, White or Lang none really offer the sort of goal return as a Moult, Sutton, Higdon or Porter.

Ironically Danny Johnson's sitting on 10 for the season already with Orient in EFL L2 but I don't think anyone's sat here pining for the ginger prince.

11 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Started a ranking for goalkeepers now.

On paper, Carson this season is a massive downgrade on Gillespie last season. Carson conceded almost exactly 1 shot less between goals than the league average over the past 2 seasons.

Carson 17/18 vs Gillespie 19/20 would be an interesting comparison.

Edited December 7, 2020 by capt_oats

[ZX1886]

I think talking to a hearts fan will quickly clear up any doubts on whether Frear was good enough at this level. Our club is crying out for a player who can take the ball down the line and actually put a half decent cross in every now and then but from my memory, I don’t remember Frear doing that a lot. Usually just stood and watched the game.

You’d think Hastie and Seedorf would fit into that role but unfortunately not, playing Long on the wing doesn’t seem very effective either.

[well fan for life]

9 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

The other thing about this summer specifically is the undeniable effect of the 'Rona.

From piecing together what we know we had pre-contracts in place with Lamie and White but also had offers on the table for Tait and Hartley - then the Covid happened, budgets were cut and presumably our plans went out the window. We've honoured our pre-contract offers and presumably altered the plans we had that weren't already agreed.

I think it's probably fair to say that Robinson's got a blind spot when it comes to goalscoring centre forwards. To devils advocate that - it's probably easier to recruit a striker who has other attributes to bring to a team than it is to sign a 15-20 goal a season guy on our budget.

I mean, that's fine when the goals are coming from elsewhere: Main chipped in during his half season while Tanner was contributing before his knee fell apart in 17/18, Turnbull pretty much matched Moult's league goals in 18/19 and we had Donnelly and Long both in double figures for the season in 19/20. The problems come when the goals aren't coming from elsewhere.

This season (taking out our 6 free goals) we're sitting on 15 goals from 14 games, last season after the same number of games we'd scored 21, 15 in 18/19 and 21 in 17/18.

However when you look at the list of Fisher, Newell, Main, Ciftci, Johnson, Sammon, Long, Manzinga, Watt, Cole, Ndjoli, White or Lang none really offer the sort of goal return as a Moult, Sutton, Higdon or Porter.

Ironically Danny Johnson's sitting on 10 for the season already with Orient in EFL L2 but I don't think anyone's pining for the ginger prince.

Carson 17/18 vs Gillespie 19/20 would be an interesting comparison.

We probably were spoiled for a few years with goalscorers. Ultimately when we dive into the English seaside leagues to look for a player it's a bit of a lottery. Somehow we came up with Louis Moult who went from looking like he'd never shift Wes Fletcher out the team to a Motherwell hero. Then Moult left and our youth academy spawned a freak of nature in David Turnbull who was firing in goals from all over the place. 

Hopefully we can come to an agreement to bin 6 or 7 folk in January to bring in 1 or 2 people who might be in danger of contributing something to the team. 

 

[RandomGuy.]

43 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Carson 17/18 vs Gillespie 19/20 would be an interesting comparison.

Its not even close.

I'm only at 17/18 now, but thats 59 keepers.

Carson 17/18 is 30th, Gillespie 19/20 is 8th.

Placings are...

Gillespie 19/20 - 8th

Gillespie 18/19 - 14th

Carson 17/18 - 30th

Carson 20/21 - 48th*

Carson 18/19 - 59th

2018/19 version the lowest, but he played half a season, got pumped 7-1, then got his bad injury. He's never once saved more than expected over a course of a season, and always comes out low in terms of shots per goal conceded.

Joe Lewis is another who comes out looking very average despite having a good reputation.

Edited December 7, 2020 by RandomGuy.