Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[MP_MFC]

8 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

The one thing giving me hope is that Killie and Ross County have fucking horrendous squads as well.

They have managers who have at least proven themselves at this and or a better level. We've got a youth coach and a guy who makes sandwiches. 

[capt_oats]

As a general point, I take it we don't actually need to have a Chief Executive in place to launch Hammell? That would be a board decision anyway?

[Swello]

4 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

As a general point, I take it we don't actually need to have a Chief Executive in place to launch Hammell? That would be a board decision anyway?

As I said earlier - I can't imagine that they would take any hire/fire decisions in a period that the old guy is clearing his desk and the new guy/girl isn't in place - I think we are in limbo at the moment.

[capt_oats]

3 minutes ago, Swello said:

As I said earlier - I can't imagine that they would take any hire/fire decisions in a period that the old guy is clearing his desk and the new guy/girl isn't in place - I think we are in limbo at the moment.

Yeah. That's annoying.

[Jacksgranda]

21 minutes ago, MP_MFC said:

They have managers who have at least proven themselves at this and or a better level. We've got a youth coach and a guy who makes sandwiches. 

At least your team will get a half time snack.

[Swello]

1 minute ago, capt_oats said:

Yeah. That's annoying.

It is - when we are all talking about bad timing - this is really what it's all about. It's easy to say "ach, it's just boardroom stuff" - but in the current predicament this directly affects the football stuff that we all mostly care about. If we miss a time to make important decisions, that's pretty unforgivable. Hopefully the new person is very imminent as waiting until the 27th now seems like a bad move.

[DukDukGoose]

1 hour ago, Miguel Ángel Espínola said:

I bet a few QP fans are wanting to see the back of Dempster

They're not her type.

[Desp]

43 minutes ago, Al B said:

I know todays announcement has absolutely zero effect on anything to do with Motherwell FC, but I just cant shake the general feeling right now that we are well and truly fucked in every way.

Who knows, it could be that everything that is happening right now ends up being a full clearing of the decks from top to bottom, ends up being a major re-set (which in all honesty is probably needed if truth be told), and we go on to make the most of things and it all ends up being for the best in the long run, but right now I can't get myself out of the phase of feeling like we're about to go through our very own Falkirk.

Is that a statement or a question?

[Al B]

19 minutes ago, Desp said:

Is that a statement or a question?

I'm not sure how that could be a question...

edit - Missed the Falkirk Presser reference

Edited February 8, 2023 by Al B

[Kapowzer]

1 hour ago, eliphas said:

Hoping the same. A re-set and clearing of the decks I think is needed given the last few years. 

As someone said,  maybe @Kapowzer  a number of pages back from memory, it feels like a 2-3 years of a kind of general malaise and things not really being quite right squad and club wise. I've definitely paraphrased that but I think it was the jist.

Needs a good leader to emerge though from somewhere externally I think. Fingers crossed.

I think I said it about 500 pages back. I do like the word malaise however and use it often especially when talking about this shitshow.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Kapowzer

[eliphas]

49 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

As a general point, I take it we don't actually need to have a Chief Executive in place to launch Hammell? That would be a board decision anyway?

Guessing it would just be one less board member to vote for it unless there is an agreed quorum which given the circumstances I'd doubt would be a problem to get around. It's essentially a few guys in a room talking and agreeing, or not, on something. It's not quite Succession boardroom dealings.

[Kapowzer]

1 minute ago, eliphas said:

Guessing it would just be one less board member to vote for it unless there is an agreed quorum which given the circumstances I'd doubt would be a problem to get around. It's essentially a few guys in a room talking and agreeing, or not, on something. It's not quite Succession boardroom dealings.

Well if Feeley and Dickie represent the contributing fan base and vote based on their wishes it should be two against.

Can’t see that being the case however.

We’ll hobble over Raith or be papped lose the must wins and go into the split needing maths to help us. At present it’s still in our own hands.

[eliphas]

I need a refresher on the whole Well Society thing and how it all works nowadays to be quite honest. Was an initial contributor and member then lapsed tbh.  

Original WS - Membership levels and contributions with individual benefits. Trying to get a big pot of money for a rainy day fund. Didn't own club. 

Second incarnation - No benefits individually. Didn't own club. Did the whole double your donation thing with Les eventually after he'd came in and been a big weirdo. Had a fund for club and we loaned as and when. 

Current incarnation - Own club as majority shareholder. Current funds still ring fenced but doesn't need to be a formal loan? It's just funding things each year isn't it?

Is that right?

There's no direct or quick way to influence things really is there as a member? Other than getting a WS board member to raise something at the WS board level, then from there have it taken to the club board?

Edited February 8, 2023 by eliphas

[capt_oats]

I've been noticing some revisionism and snark about Burrows' time with us, not necessarily from Motherwell fans but more from fans of other clubs who seem confused as to why he's held in high regard.

Aside from all the "fan engagement" stuff, having a quick look Dempster left in June 2014 so objectively his tenure starts then. He became COO 10th June 2016 and became Chief Executive 17th April 2018.

So in that time - from the 14/15 season:

League & Cup:
14/15 (McCall/Baraclough) : 11th
15/16 (Baraclough/McGhee): 5th (Youth Cup winners)
16/17 (McGhee/Robinson): 9th
17/18 (Robinson): 7th (League Cup Finalists, Scottish Cup Finalists)
18/19 (Robinson): 8th
19/20 (Robinson): 3rd* (European Qualification)
20/21 (Robinson/Alexander): 8th
21/22 (Alexander): 5th (European Qualification)
22/23 (Alexander/Hammell): erm, TBC

Gives us 6 different managers (although McCall was clearly already in place when he got the job) with an average league position of 7th alongside 3 Top 6 finishes, 2x European qualification and 2x Cup Finals.

Finance:
14/15: (£1.15m)
15/16: (£412k)
16/17: (£104k) - became fully fan owned 28th October 2016
17/18: £1.72m (record profit/turnover)
18/19: (£436k)
19/20: £346k - record transfer received - £3m (D.Turnbull)
20/21: £3.57m (record profit/turnover)
21/22: (£1.08m)

So 2x record profits, transition to full fan ownership in addition to growth to record ST sales.

I mean, yes we look fucked at the moment but broadly speaking I'm not sure what folk are expecting from the CEO of a provincial club in terms of performance.

In May 2022 we were sitting with £4.2m+ in the bank and a nice new pitch having just qualified for Europe for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.

Edited February 8, 2023 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

44 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I need a refresher on the whole Well Society thing and how it all works nowadays to be quite honest. Was an initial contributor and member then lapsed tbh.  

Original WS - Membership levels and contributions with individual benefits. Trying to get a big pot of money for a rainy day fund. Didn't own club. 

Second incarnation - No benefits individually. Didn't own club. Did the whole double your donation thing with Les eventually after he'd came in and been a big weirdo. Had a fund for club and we loaned as and when. 

Current incarnation - Own club as majority shareholder. Current funds still ring fenced but doesn't need to be a formal loan? It's just funding things each year isn't it?

Is that right?

There's no direct or quick way to influence things really is there as a member? Other than getting a WS board member to raise something at the WS board level, then from there have it taken to the club board?

That's pretty much how I see it, we are basically modelled on clubs in the continent (Germany at least) that are/were fan owned. At the top is a supervisory board above the club board above the CEO. 

It's important to stress that - in theory at least - we're fan owned, not fan run. 

Of course when there only 50 of us and a dog it's easy to bring stuff up - mail the society and you'll likely get a much quicker response, if not always concrete action, than when a bloke in München mails Bayern.

On the other side, we have ended up fan run in practice which has clear benefits but also drawbacks. If you want to be professionally run you need to not only pay for pros but accept they will have their own agenda which might not always match that of the fans (the #content last season, for example).

I think most people agree we've had a stinker of a year off the pitch but it's hard to know exactly why, especially when on the pitch we've basically been ok recently and are financially stable. Are the current lot just tired and out of ideas or is there a deeper (and hat-tip for the word here) malaise that some new blood won't fix? 

[Swello]

58 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I need a refresher on the whole Well Society thing and how it all works nowadays to be quite honest. Was an initial contributor and member then lapsed tbh.  

Original WS - Membership levels and contributions with individual benefits. Trying to get a big pot of money for a rainy day fund. Didn't own club. 

Second incarnation - No benefits individually. Didn't own club. Did the whole double your donation thing with Les eventually after he'd came in and been a big weirdo. Had a fund for club and we loaned as and when. 

Current incarnation - Own club as majority shareholder. Current funds still ring fenced but doesn't need to be a formal loan? It's just funding things each year isn't it?

Is that right?

There's no direct or quick way to influence things really is there as a member? Other than getting a WS board member to raise something at the WS board level, then from there have it taken to the club board?

I'm a contributer/member of the Society but to be quite honest, other than paying in, I've not really taken much interest in the day to day stuff. I was initially sold on the idea of the "rainy day overdraft thingy" rather than the fan ownership stuff as I thought the former was more important to the survival of the club than the latter. I've always had a consistent view that I don't want our supporters to have any sort of day to day operational influence on the club - that type of fan ownership would, to put it technically, be a massive fucking disaster.

One thing I think I can say is that that Feeley/Dickie are not playing some sort of adversarial role on the board where they are constantly pushing the other directors based on some sort of feedback from the "owners" - they are just being normal board members and that could be a good thing or it could all be far too cosy - I don't know about that part (although I think having some feet held to the fire by the supporters reps on the Board would be a fine, healthy thing).

Like a lot of stuff at the moment -the fan ownership stuff is going to need re-focussed and changed based on the fact that we are being financially outgunned these days...

[KirkySuperSub]

Off topic, but someone mentioned about donations to the Well Society the other day, might have been on SO, can't mind.

Any idea how or where you do so, for auction or raffle prizes?

I've had this for years, but it's just taking up space now, nowhere to put it - the mancave is filled The Who signed stuff, which takes priority!

Signed by, amongst others, McFadden, Craigan, Hammell, Corrigan, Lasley, Butcher, Clarkson, Quinn, Burns, Kinniburgh, Fagan...a few others I can't mind or work out!

Happy to donate it to the Well Society.

[Handsome_Devil]

2 minutes ago, Swello said:

Like a lot of stuff at the moment -the fan ownership stuff is going to need re-focussed and changed based on the fact that we are being financially outgunned these days...

Our problem with fan ownership is twofold, the first is obviously we have limited financial heft but the long-term bigger issue is we struggle to find enough suitable people to do things day in day out, year in year out.

That's understandable because it's a near thankless task for a near impossible job but it still annoys me when people criticise fan ownership without lifting a finger themselves to make it better. Fan ownership is not the best or worst option for us but the only option so either make the most of it or...don't.

[Handsome_Devil]

4 minutes ago, KirkySuperSub said:

Off topic, but someone mentioned about donations to the Well Society the other day, might have been on SO, can't mind.

Any idea how or where you do so, for auction or raffle prizes?

I've had this for years, but it's just taking up space now, nowhere to put it - the mancave is filled The Who signed stuff, which takes priority!

Signed by, amongst others, McFadden, Craigan, Hammell, Corrigan, Lasley, Butcher, Clarkson, Quinn, Burns, Kinniburgh, Fagan...a few others I can't mind or work out!

Happy to donate it to the Well Society.

Just mail them: wellsociety@motherwellfc.co.uk

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

That's pretty much how I see it, we are basically modelled on clubs in the continent (Germany at least) that are/were fan owned. At the top is a supervisory board above the club board above the CEO. 

It's important to stress that - in theory at least - we're fan owned, not fan run. 

Of course when there only 50 of us and a dog it's easy to bring stuff up - mail the society and you'll likely get a much quicker response, if not always concrete action, than when a bloke in München mails Bayern.

On the other side, we have ended up fan run in practice which has clear benefits but also drawbacks. If you want to be professionally run you need to not only pay for pros but accept they will have their own agenda which might not always match that of the fans (the #content last season, for example).

I think most people agree we've had a stinker of a year off the pitch but it's hard to know exactly why, especially when on the pitch we've basically been ok recently and are financially stable. Are the current lot just tired and out of ideas or is there a deeper (and hat-tip for the word here) malaise that some new blood won't fix? 

This is what is interesting about our current situation, the direction that we decide to opt to take and why it speaks to the need for someone to actually take grip of things rather than let it drift into a malaise.

In theory we should be able to just go out and hire the best person for the job within our pay structure. Being a "fan" shouldn't be a pre-requisite. Will we do that? What are the qualities that we're actually looking for?

I was being facetious the other day when I mentioned that once Burrows leaves the board is basically just a bunch of old dudes. Not a criticism and wasn't intended as such but it's also factually true.

We exist in a "Modern Fitba" culture and one of Burrows' strong points was that he was/is attuned to that. You only had to listen to the multitude of podcasts he'd jump on to understand that while he was/is a Motherwell fan he was also incredibly switched on when it came to The Business Of Football.

That's almost certainly the reason that Colgate Dave Cormack has drafted him in.

I may be doing them a disservice but I'm not sure the remaining board members are necessarily on the same page and it's unfair to expect that of guys in their 60s and 70s to be paying attention to anything zeitgeist-y it's not like they're Iggy Pop or whatever.

Take Burrows out of the equation and there's definitely a void that I can imagine will be difficult to fill.

However the fact that in the past year, while Burrows has still been here, we seem to have found it difficult to fill important vacancies definitely raises questions and speaks to whether or not there's just a staleness or something more deep rooted because unlike previous seasons and despite what some of our fanbase seem to want to think - we're actually financially stable:

Head of digital & brand - still vacant
Head of Academy - took almost 6 months to appoint and in the end we just promoted the guy already in the building
First team manager - we gave that role to the Academy Director FFS!

There are obviously rational explanations for those decisions/appointments but equally there are possibly still flags there to be raised.

I don't think there's any doubt that Grant Russell was a Burrows hire and while our *award winning media team* may have bent a few of us out of shape it was a good fit for the vision Burrows seemed to have for branding the club.

That felt like a case of bringing someone in based on perceived talent and had a broader view of things rather than the "welcome to our great wee club" mindset. Which is obviously a good thing.

Seeing that Grant n Laura have traded up to West Ham should reflect well on them and us (well, apart from Brannan's socials takes they were an absolute riddy) but the fact that we haven't replaced them after almost a year makes you think.

Edited February 8, 2023 by capt_oats