Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[eliphas]

If you just discount or ignore an ability to successfully score, or successfully save penalties then you aren't doing your job as a coach. 

It's clearly not the be all and end all but it's a factor for the players involved 100%

In my humble opinion of course. 

[Swello]

I think that as we are in VAR world and have a very punitive handball rule - penalties are a bigger deal (and will decide more games) than was the case in the past - so having a player that can score a higher than average percentage of penalties Vs their peers is now a more important part of a starting 11. 

All things being equal - if you were making a choice from a couple of players and one was also useful from dead balls - you'd be picking them as that is a largely un-coachable thing and something not all players can do well (as there is both skill and a mental aspect to penalties).

[Al B]

I feel i need to clarify again.

I'm not saying penalty success isn't important, and i'm not saying it isn't a useful skill to have or that it isn't a valuable thing to have in your team. It's just not a metric that applies to someones performance in the position of an attacking footballer. A high penalty conversion rate makes you a good penalty taker...not a good striker. (Not saying you cant be both, just that they are separate things)

A defender could quite feasibly be on penalties and score every single one, without having the slightest clue how to play up front. A fantastic striker could feasably be a terrible penalty taker for a number of reasons.

And also to further clarify, l like KVV! He's doing great things and playing brilliantly...i'll be as delighted as anyone if he bangs in a hattrick today! I just don't think its all that contentious or controversial an opinion to say that he was poor previously, and that him being on penalties (and us being awarded so many of them early in the season) meant the goal stats masked that.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Al B

[boozyBJ]

I’m a fan of any goal that we score, penalties, tap ins, 30 yard screamers. It’s all gravy to me

[capt_oats]

I mean, just to throw this out there and like @thisGRAEME, not a nip at anyone. In terms of his penalties KVV has one more than Moult and 2 more than Higdon (albeit in fewer games).

As a % 27% of his total goals scored for Motherwell have come from penalties.

I agree that you need to take penalties into account for context @crazylegsjoe_mfc's example of Donnelly and O'Hara potentially being misrepresented as goalscoring midfielders is spot on but I'm not sure that dinging a striker who takes pens but whose tally isn't disproportionally skewed by by them (and it's not) gets you anywhere.

As I say, I don't remember anyone piping up about Moult, Higdon or Coyne and asking how many of their goals were penalties.

Kevin van Veen - 33 goals in 76 games. Penalty goals = 9 . Missed penalties = 1  (27.2% of goals scored are penalties)
Michael Higdon - 43 goals in 83 games. Penalty goals = 7. Missed penalties = 2 (16.2%)
Louis Moult - 51 goals in 105 games. Penalty goals = 8. Missed penalties = 1 (15.6%)
John Sutton - 78 goals in 207 games. Penalty goals = 7. Missed penalties = 1 (8.9%)
James McFadden - 38 goals in 110 games. Penalty goals = 4. Missed penalties = 0 (10.5%)
Scott McDonald - 70 in 198 games. Penalty goals = 1. Missed penalties = 1 (1.4%)
Chris Porter - 25 goals in 63 games. Penalty goals = 0. Missed penalties = 2 (0%)

Edited April 15, 2023 by capt_oats

[Archie McSquackle]

My mind is playing tricks on me, I'm sure I can remember McFadden missing a penalty. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Just now, Archie McSquackle said:

My mind is playing tricks on me, I'm sure I can remember McFadden missing a penalty. 

Yeah, he missed one against Dundee on the final day of the 2001/02 season. But the captain's stats are so good I'm sure we can give him that one

For the record, the point I've been making is a general one about penalties. I think 12 league goals, topped up by 6 penalties I'd a fantastic return, be that as a centre forward, a penalty taker or whatever.

[capt_oats]

43 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Yeah, he missed one against Dundee on the final day of the 2001/02 season. But the captain's stats are so good I'm sure we can give him that one

For the record, the point I've been making is a general one about penalties. I think 12 league goals, topped up by 6 penalties I'd a fantastic return, be that as a centre forward, a penalty taker or whatever.

Full disclosure, I've entirely lifted them from the 'penalty goals' page on Transfermarkt - https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-mcfadden/elfmetertore/spieler/9956

[Busta Nut]

I think we've reached a point where we no longer need to discuss KVV. The man is a legend. 

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Yeah, he missed one against Dundee on the final day of the 2001/02 season. But the captain's stats are so good I'm sure we can give him that one

For the record, the point I've been making is a general one about penalties. I think 12 league goals, topped up by 6 penalties I'd a fantastic return, be that as a centre forward, a penalty taker or whatever.

Did he not miss one at dens too? I have an odd feeling he missed two for us with Speroni saving both.

[Swello]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I mean, just to throw this out there and like @thisGRAEME, not a nip at anyone. In terms of his penalties KVV has one more than Moult and 2 more than Higdon (albeit in fewer games).

As a % 27% of his total goals scored for Motherwell have come from penalties.

I agree that you need to take penalties into account for context @crazylegsjoe_mfc's example of Donnelly and O'Hara potentially being misrepresented as goalscoring midfielders is spot on but I'm not sure that dinging a striker who takes pens but whose tally isn't disproportionally skewed by by them (and it's not) gets you anywhere.

As I say, I don't remember anyone piping up about Moult, Higdon or Coyne and asking how many of their goals were penalties.

Kevin van Veen - 33 goals in 76 games. Penalty goals = 9 . Missed penalties = 1  (27.2% of goals scored are penalties)
Michael Higdon - 43 goals in 83 games. Penalty goals = 7. Missed penalties = 2 (16.2%)
Louis Moult - 51 goals in 105 games. Penalty goals = 8. Missed penalties = 1 (15.6%)
John Sutton - 78 goals in 207 games. Penalty goals = 7. Missed penalties = 1 (8.9%)
James McFadden - 38 goals in 110 games. Penalty goals = 4. Missed penalties = 0 (10.5%)
Scott McDonald - 70 in 198 games. Penalty goals = 1. Missed penalties = 1 (1.4%)
Chris Porter - 25 goals in 63 games. Penalty goals = 0. Missed penalties = 2 (0%)

Chris Porter wasn't underrated at penalties.

[AnderooMFC]

Kick-offs in just over an hour and we're debating on how much weight to give penalties. What a change from 5months ago where the debate was 'Championship Towns And Their Takeaways When We're Down'.
As a side note and neatly tying things together, apparently Big Kev (who I have always loved and follow on Twitter)'s last missed pen was against todays opponents in September. Let's hope Kev and Ketts can get one in today.

[Phillips455]

Welp. Atleast I saved £32 today.

[CoF]

9 minutes ago, Phillips455 said:

Welp. Atleast I saved £32 today.

Yep. Ach well. 

[DeadStar]

Top 6 was some dream eh. Useless hearts wanks

[Handsome_Devil]

Bit of a blow to start, would take a point now even more readily.

[Well Well]

I can't believe we have sat in and defended virtually the whole game. Inviting Dundee Utd onto you is ridiculous. Van Veen was doing his nut screaming at the midfield to push up but they kept looking across to SK who was indicating for them to sit deep...why?

We only started to play any decent attacking football when we were 2-1 down. 

I truly do not understand why we went from playing attacking football every game since SK came in to deciding to sit in and defend the biggest majority of the game?. It does not suit our players or setup and Furlong and Johnston were caught out numerous times down the flanks.

We look far more composed and in control when we attack, beyond comprehension. 

[Handsome_Devil]

We got what we deserved today, terrible performance. That said we almost got away with it and would have won comfortably had KVV not missed that sitter.

Ho hum. A stinker was overdue and with Celtic next a shame we can't secure safety pre split.

[Allroy for Prez]

Fucking shambles of a result

[MP_MFC]

Never started today. Full backs very very poor- had we got a second we would have been fine but we had no plan B. 
 

Ive seen more than enough of jack aitchison to know he’s useless. 
 

would love to see their penalty again as it looked like a carbon copy of the one fletcher got booked for - looked a good shout for us with Cornelius getting pulled down just before they broke for theirs too.