Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'm really happy for Johnston.

Is Turnbull totally out the picture now? 

[ropy]

57 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

Now been called up to the full squad for the France game. 

From being our third choice right back and being sent out on loan to Cove this time last year to playing in the Europa League and a getting a full Scotland call up in less than 12 months. 

I was going to suggest this over the weekend but backed off.

Damn

[Al B]

Am I missing something, or are tickets for Saturday not on sale yet?

[ropy]

12 minutes ago, Al B said:

Am I missing something, or are tickets for Saturday not on sale yet?

Missing something 

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/tickets/forthcoming-matches/

[camer0n_mcd]

11 minutes ago, Al B said:

Am I missing something, or are tickets for Saturday not on sale yet?

Just checked the club website and it's fine for me. On the "forthcoming matches" tab

[Al B]

Ahhh...for some reason I went to the "Buy Match Tickets" tab. Can't think why I'd have assumed they'd be in there

Thanks!

[Gallus Numpty]

2 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Mental that this time last year our manager, the former academy director of all people, decided the best thing to do with him was to ship him off to Cove Rangers on loan. 

I mean, at this point, it's hard to argue that it wasn't the best thing to do, for Max Johnston at least.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Gallus Numpty

[camer0n_mcd]

[Swello]

4 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Is Turnbull totally out the picture now? 

(Except the large, life changing amount of money that he is making) his move to Celtic hasn't worked out the way I expected it to. I assumed it was going to be a couple of seasons of easy medals and then off down south to a lower ranking EPL team - but it feels like any hype around him has died away significantly. He had an injury and then Ange didn't really fancy him so he's scarcely mentioned these days as far as I can tell.

[Pepper]

Rodgers seemed to take a shine to Turnbull and gave him a few starts to the great consternation of their fans. He scored a few goals so stayed in the team until he seemed to fall right out of form.

He's not looked like the same player and on current form doesn't deserve to be near the Scotland squad either. 

He'll be away to the English Championship in January. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

46 minutes ago, Swello said:

(Except the large, life changing amount of money that he is making) his move to Celtic hasn't worked out the way I expected it to. I assumed it was going to be a couple of seasons of easy medals and then off down south to a lower ranking EPL team - but it feels like any hype around him has died away significantly. He had an injury and then Ange didn't really fancy him so he's scarcely mentioned these days as far as I can tell.

There's obviously lots of stuff other than pure ability- mentality, physicality etc- but nobody will ever convince me that Lewis Ferguson is the most gifted midfielder born in Lanarkshire in 1999.

I didn't think that Celtic was a terrible move at the time either but in hindsight it seems that the route Ferguson has taken would probably have served Turnbull better too. 

[RandomGuy.]

Turnbull will absolutely explode at the next club he plays at, no matter what the level.

Hes unfortunate Celtic signed some genuinely top class midfielders in O'Riley and Hatate IMO.

[Ron Aldo]

2 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

There's obviously lots of stuff other than pure ability- mentality, physicality etc- but nobody will ever convince me that Lewis Ferguson is the most gifted midfielder born in Lanarkshire in 1999.

I didn't think that Celtic was a terrible move at the time either but in hindsight it seems that the route Ferguson has taken would probably have served Turnbull better too. 

Putting aside my disdain of Celtic (and Rangers), I can see no reason from a footballing perspective for a young Scottish player to move to either of them. It's about the most unadventurous move a player can make. Scud everyone domestically while routinely getting scudded in Europe - what can Turnbull be learning there (supposing he even plays)? 

A move to Germany, Italy or elsewhere in Europe would have been much better for his development IMO, as the likes of Hickey and Ferguson have shown. Trying to be unbiased, I'd say Turnbull was better than both of them during their time in Scotland but both have since surpassed him by trying a different country while Davie has barely kicked his own arse at Celtic. 

[Neil86]

13 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

Putting aside my disdain of Celtic (and Rangers), I can see no reason from a footballing perspective for a young Scottish player to move to either of them. It's about the most unadventurous move a player can make. Scud everyone domestically while routinely getting scudded in Europe - what can Turnbull be learning there (supposing he even plays)? 

A move to Germany, Italy or elsewhere in Europe would have been much better for his development IMO, as the likes of Hickey and Ferguson have shown. Trying to be unbiased, I'd say Turnbull was better than both of them during their time in Scotland but both have since surpassed him by trying a different country while Davie has barely kicked his own arse at Celtic. 

I completely agree with you here btw, Hickey was the first of the Scottish contingent (aside from Liam Henderson) to make the move, and according to tranfser market, he went the same summer as Turnbull went to Celtic. After the success of Hickey, any half decent youngster was linked with a move to Italy, Josh Campbell was even touted at one point.

I don't recall Turnbull having any European suitors, could be wrong here btw. 

Italian teams seemed happy taking young Scottish players, is it possible Turnbull just missed out on that, I reckon Italy would be perfect for his style of play.
 

Again, I could be wrong, the only two teams that put in sensible offers for him were Norwich and Celtic.

[Desp]

Turnbull went to Celtic because he didn't want to move away from home at the age he was.  Like others, I thought he'd piss it at Celtic but the bad injury he got (I think it was in the League Cup final v Hibs) done him.  During his time off, Ange went and got O'Riley & Hatate and DT never really got a sniff after that.  It's a shame (especially for our sell-on clause) but these things can happen.

I wonder if he's changed significantly over the last three and a half years to be open to a move abroad, but I wouldn't be massively surprised to see him end up at an English Championship club based in the North of England. 

[gannonball]

15 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

Putting aside my disdain of Celtic (and Rangers), I can see no reason from a footballing perspective for a young Scottish player to move to either of them. It's about the most unadventurous move a player can make. 

I think you are forgetting the likes of Christie/Armstrong/Turnbull etc didn't really have a great deal of interest from down south so coming to us was a no-brainer really for them. Playing with better players and European exposure then allows them greater choice as to where to go after. Looking at other young foreign players Dembele,Édouard,Ajer etc I don't think coming to us for a few seasons for development has done them any harm at all. In fact it is your 'disdain' that is probably ignoring the reality tbh.

2 hours ago, Desp said:

Turnbull went to Celtic because he didn't want to move away from home at the age he was. 

I wonder if he's changed significantly over the last three and a half years to be open to a move abroad, but I wouldn't be massively surprised to see him end up at an English Championship club based in the North of England. 

Was it not that Norwich pulled out when he had that medical that basically made us the only option really? I really like Turnbull as a player and he has been very unlucky with the other options we have but I have my doubts if he has the required fitness to make it at the top level. Hes out of contract in the summer and I wouldn't blame him if doesn't sign a new deal as he is basically waiting for other players to move on to get a regular game. Probably a move in January is best for him. I think he would suit the championship down south so hopefully a yo-yo team takes a punt on him.

Edited October 17, 2023 by gannonball

[Desp]

22 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Was it not that Norwich pulled out when he had that medical that basically made us the only option really? I really like Turnbull as a player and he has been very unlucky with the other options we have but I have my doubts if he has the required fitness to make it at the top level. Hes out of contract in the summer and I wouldn't blame him if doesn't sign a new deal as he is basically waiting for other players to move on to get a regular game. Probably a move in January is best for him. I think he would suit the championship down south so hopefully a yo-yo team takes a punt on him.

Yes and no.  Norwich wanted him but they pulled out of the deal in the same way managers pull out of the running for a vacancy when they know they're not getting it.  Turnbull wanted Celtic as it meant he could stay at home.  Once the initial deal fell through, he signed a new deal with Motherwell with the agreement that he could go to Celtic should they table the same bid again, which they subsequently did.

I think the "fitness" thing was, and continues to be, a cheap shot.  He's a fit guy, but because he doesn't run about daft like a Maeda or a Kyogo, people suggest he's lazy.  He's perhaps a victim of the current trend in football where teams rarely play with a #10 these days.  For me, a manager would need to build a team around DT to get the best out of him.  Ange certainly didn't do that, as Turnbull didn't fit his style of play (one of those things) and I think whilst Rodgers could and will get more out of him, there's just better players ahead of him in the queue for a place in the team.

[gannonball]

11 minutes ago, Desp said:

Yes and no.  Norwich wanted him but they pulled out of the deal in the same way managers pull out of the running for a vacancy when they know they're not getting it.  Turnbull wanted Celtic as it meant he could stay at home.  Once the initial deal fell through, he signed a new deal with Motherwell with the agreement that he could go to Celtic should they table the same bid again, which they subsequently did.

I think the "fitness" thing was, and continues to be, a cheap shot.  He's a fit guy, but because he doesn't run about daft like a Maeda or a Kyogo, people suggest he's lazy.  He's perhaps a victim of the current trend in football where teams rarely play with a #10 these days.  For me, a manager would need to build a team around DT to get the best out of him.  Ange certainly didn't do that, as Turnbull didn't fit his style of play (one of those things) and I think whilst Rodgers could and will get more out of him, there's just better players ahead of him in the queue for a place in the team.

I didn't mean the fitness thing as a cheap shot tbh, I just don't think he's naturally as fit as you would expect a higher level midfielder to be. People used to get pissed off at Lennon for always subbing him when he was playing well but I think it was because he was struggling to effect games for more than an hour, the 5 sub rule though kind of helps with this now though. 

['WellDel]

Agree that Turnbull is often unfairly seen as lacking fitness, that's simply not true and just his style of play not being suited to the way Postecoglu wanted his team to play. Under him, Celtic's midfield was very robust, dynamic and direct, playing from middle to front very quickly and getting the likes of Jota down the lines and in behind the full backs at pace. Turnbull's game is far more measured, getting his foot on the ball and pinging passes, looking for that killer through ball that no-one else has seen. He simply wasn't suited to that set up.

Maybe with Rodgers starting to mould the team into his own way of playing will see DT given another crack, but I get the feeling that a lot of Celtic fans have already made their minds up on him, and a fresh start elsewhere would be far more beneficial for him at this stage of his career. I'd say that at Parkhead his tea is just about oot.

[capt_oats]

21 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

Putting aside my disdain of Celtic (and Rangers), I can see no reason from a footballing perspective for a young Scottish player to move to either of them. It's about the most unadventurous move a player can make. Scud everyone domestically while routinely getting scudded in Europe - what can Turnbull be learning there (supposing he even plays)? 

A move to Germany, Italy or elsewhere in Europe would have been much better for his development IMO, as the likes of Hickey and Ferguson have shown. Trying to be unbiased, I'd say Turnbull was better than both of them during their time in Scotland but both have since surpassed him by trying a different country while Davie has barely kicked his own arse at Celtic. 

Tbh, this feels a bit reductive.

It's all very well talking about what moves a player should/shouldn't make but it overlooks the human aspect of it.

I'm not advocating young players sign for Celtic (and definitely not Rangers) but Turnbull was 19 and had played a total of 36 first team games for Motherwell when the original "magnificent" offer was tabled. When he eventually signed he was 21 with 41 first team games after rehabbing from a serious (knee) injury.

In contrast Lewis Ferguson was 18 when he signed his pre-contract with Aberdeen from Accies and was 23 with 169 games under his belt for Aberdeen when he signed for Bologna.

It's not really a like for like comparison. In terms of career trajectory Turnbull's Celtic Era is the equivalent of Ferguson's time at Pittodrie.

Fair fucks to Hickey for taking the risk but given he moved to Italy at the same point as Turnbull moved to Celtic it's not as if there was this well established track record of young Scots moving to Serie A.

To that point, I've always thought it was pretty clear why he opted for Celtic and regardless of how it's panned out it was a relatively sensible move given the circumstances - and one that's still seen him play over 100+ games for them and get Champions League fitba out of it.

As @Desp says he wanted to stay at home and wanted a realistic chance of getting games. IIRC the suggestion was that when he spoke to Norwich their plan for him was to start in their u23s whereas Lennon's pitch was for him to be part of Celtic's first team - he subsequently won PFA Young Player of The Year and both Celtic's POTY and YPOTY awards in the season he signed.

Obviously the fact that they fucked The Ten casts quite the fucking shadow and his face not fitting for Ange is just one of those things. As @'WellDel says it feels as though Celtic fans have made their minds up on him and a clean break would be the best for both parties.

Desp touched on it earlier but it'll be interesting to see if his experience at Celtic (for better or worse) has changed his perspective on things as far as his next move goes.

Edited October 17, 2023 by capt_oats